Jump to content

VW Racing's Quaife Diff....


RedRobin
 Share

Recommended Posts

....

For Mk5 VeeDub GTI:

Like most mods, you don't actually need any of them, but........You could apply the same way of thinking and say you only need a Toyota Yaris (Sorry, but driving one of those is enough to destroy your will to live!). At first, my perception of a limited slip diff was that it was pointless unless you did trackdays but talking to one or two people with experience of them and also driving my good friend Jason's Mk5 GTI with a VWR Quaife convinced me otherwise. The fact that VW have now included a LSD, albeit electronic, in the GTI Mk6 acknowledges that traction can be a problem in certain conditions.

It's been a long time coming but worth the wait.

The down side of working with VW Racing is that plans and timeframes keep changing because of their priorities (this was made clear from the start and I have no problem whatsoever with this). The overwhelming up side is their expertise and high standards backed up by their ability through their contacts to solve any problems which may arise - and this was put to the test. They are dedicated VW specialists and I don't believe my GTI could be in better hands.

The first problem encountered was that Quaife delivered the wrong diff in the right packaging and further compounded by Quaife's delay in sending it! They are famous for their products but are a very typical British engineering company that doesn't always respond to customers as efficiently and quickly as they should do. It's a bit like the difference between the UK and USA postal services. The Quaife ATB diff installed is the one exclusively developed by VWR and is designed to respond more quickly to the physical inputs. It's quite a lump and weighs 10 lbs - Good job I saved weight with that carbonfibre bonnet isn't it! (I knew I'd find a reason to justify it).

VW Racing are over 3 hours drive away and so we arranged that I deliver my car on a Monday afternoon and they would start work the next day. Working on the DSG box of tricks requires a high standard of skill and, following an introduction to VWR, I chose them because of their experience and expertise. They choose their mechanics/technicians very carefully. All was going well until I got a phone call in the evening to say that they were changing the bearings - It was okay and good for many more miles but 53,000 miles of wear meant it didn't match as perfectly as they would like with the new cogs of the Quaife. But it's a VW part and not something hanging around on a shelf in stock in the UK. No problem! One was sent overnight from Germany.

At this stage I'm sat here with one eye outside, expecting to see my beloved red GTI arrive any moment as I need her tomorrow and there wasn't time for me to drive up to VWR to collect.

I'll keep you posted.

+++:cool:+++

Link to comment
Share on other sites

....

For Mk5 VeeDub GTI:

Like most mods, you don't actually need any of them, but........You could apply the same way of thinking and say you only need a Toyota Yaris (Sorry, but driving one of those is enough to destroy your will to live!). At first, my perception of a limited slip diff was that it was pointless unless you did trackdays but talking to one or two people with experience of them and also driving my good friend Jason's Mk5 GTI with a VWR Quaife convinced me otherwise. The fact that VW have now included a LSD, albeit electronic, in the GTI Mk6 acknowledges that traction can be a problem in certain conditions.

It's been a long time coming but worth the wait.

The down side of working with VW Racing is that plans and timeframes keep changing because of their priorities (this was made clear from the start and I have no problem whatsoever with this). The overwhelming up side is their expertise and high standards backed up by their ability through their contacts to solve any problems which may arise - and this was put to the test. They are dedicated VW specialists and I don't believe my GTI could be in better hands.

The first problem encountered was that Quaife delivered the wrong diff in the right packaging and further compounded by Quaife's delay in sending it! They are famous for their products but are a very typical British engineering company that doesn't always respond to customers as efficiently and quickly as they should do. It's a bit like the difference between the UK and USA postal services. The Quaife ATB diff installed is the one exclusively developed by VWR and is designed to respond more quickly to the physical inputs. It's quite a lump and weighs 10 lbs - Good job I saved weight with that carbonfibre bonnet isn't it! (I knew I'd find a reason to justify it).

VW Racing are over 3 hours drive away and so we arranged that I deliver my car on a Monday afternoon and they would start work the next day. Working on the DSG box of tricks requires a high standard of skill and, following an introduction to VWR, I chose them because of their experience and expertise. They choose their mechanics/technicians very carefully. All was going well until I got a phone call in the evening to say that they were changing the bearings - It was okay and good for many more miles but 53,000 miles of wear meant it didn't match as perfectly as they would like with the new cogs of the Quaife. But it's a VW part and not something hanging around on a shelf in stock in the UK. No problem! One was sent overnight from Germany.

At this stage I'm sat here with one eye outside, expecting to see my beloved red GTI arrive any moment as I need her tomorrow and there wasn't time for me to drive up to VWR to collect.

I'll keep you posted.

+++:cool:+++

Keep us posted, RR. She'll be back soon enough and with more front-end grip than before. Great things too come! +++

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Robin,

I called in to see how they're getting on. The Lead Engineer at VWR explained to me that their apprentice had experienced a little difficulty in fitting the new bearings but with a bit of brute-force and ignorance they went in.

Looks like it will be ready soon. No need to worry I'm sure....;)

....BASTARD!! :finger: :fecker: :finger: - You even named the pic file after me!

^^Very funny though - :roflmao:

Their workshop is cleaner than my kitchen! Great pic you posted +++ - I'll be posting more info soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

....

FRIDAY:

Mark (Head Tech at VWR) drove my GTI about 180 miles to my home tonight after installing the Quaife diff and said the only issue he found was that my front end suspension is a bit bouncy but thought it was the wrong spring loadings rather than the Koni FSD's. Earlier chat I had with Ed at APS suggested that the diff might effect how my suspension felt. I don't fully understand this yet but will be looking into it.

The wear I mentioned on my DSG bearings was 'engineering' signs of wear and not wearing out or wearing in such a way to give concern. I guess it's because of them working on race cars where everything must be 'perfect' that caused them to prefer to replace the bearings. The 'engineering wear' would be exactly the same on a manual transmission of about 50k miles - It wasn't a DSG specific observation.

My DSG oil and filter gave nothing to be concerned about either.

I haven't driven her yet! Can't wait until tomorrow.

SATURDAY:

I did a 180 mile trip to Plymouth Uni today with my daughter but the route is mostly fast dual carriageway not B-road twisties and no roundabouts.

The A38 dual carriageway is potentially very fast - Quite capable of safely taking a constant 120 mph if little traffic, but it's the UK, so no opportunity. There's some sweeping fast bends on it which would have been ideal for some high speed testing. One stretch was good - Dual carriageway with tight but smooth bends with an advised speed of 40 but 70 was absolutely no problem - The diff makes the car feel totally unphased and rock steady. Obviously I built up to it slowly rather than go steaming in.

On another short stretch of dual carriageway nearer to home, the road dips and bends and rises bending right then left and swooping down and with cambers which usually threaten to unsettle the car but today with the diff I could simply blast right through it. It feels almost as if my car is no longer front wheel drive.

Overall, the car feels as if the suspension has changed - It feels more settled and planted - But I'm very aware of the dangers of the placebo effect.

I need some twisty B-roads and roundabouts.

SUNDAY:

Planned the twistiest route I know locally and did 45 miles this fine Sunday morning. I had to keep stopping to let the traffic get clear ahead - A few wretched caravanners around and trains of slow drivers braking for every single bend when they weren't going fast enough to warrant doing so - You all know the sort!

The diff is soooo smooooth! I've only just started to explore it for myself and, as I've said before, need Mark to demonstrate it to me fully. Compared with some of the same bends without the diff, it feels much better planted but it's seamless - You only know it's working because of the better traction/handling. Not a cheap mod at about £1,550 but it transforms the car - It feels like a higher performance car. I had ESP on as I usually do.

I'm very very curious to learn how the Mk6 GTI's electronic diff feels, and indeed how it works.

+++ Big thumbs up so far!! +++

Edited by RedRobin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

....

Another decent long drive today - 180 miles round trip to have lunch in a Harvester pub (I recommend the Caribbean Curry) with my accountant and close friend - He's just got the latest Saab Estate but never uses the paddles!

Roads were wet after raining last night and so a good test although they quickly dried off. B-roads, A-roads, and M-way. I'm slowly getting more confident and pushing harder to see how well the Quaife performs. She finds the grip/traction very quickly, even being undisturbed by a large wet manhole cover. Sometimes, if going very hard on the throttle for an overtake, she'll imperceptibly snake under acceleration - It really is very subtle and over very quickly and it's probably only a centimetre in side movement - absolutely nothing to worry about and the ESP doesn't cut in. The Quaife feels gentle and not in the slightest bit harsh when it comes in - You have to concentrate to catch its action.

I'm not experiencing that nasty random snatching anymore either - We thought it may have been due to mixing directional with assymetric tyres but VWR also cleaned up the wheelspeed sensors when installing the diff, so who knows.

It's not a cheap mod but really transforms a remapped FWD Mk5 GTI by contributing so much to getting the power down. I have to be careful that it doesn't lull me into being over confident!

Instead of feeling pessimistic about roundabouts in wintry wet conditions, I'm strangely looking forward to it.

+++

Link to comment
Share on other sites

....

I'm going to be having a drive in a friend's modded S3 soon and it'll be interesting to compare the quattro back-to-back and also hear his impressions of mine.

Comparing the Quaife diff with the R32 'AWD', I find the Quaife'd FWD more lively and fun without getting out of shape.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you're going to test a quattro, please test a real one without a stupid clutch in the way spoiling all the fun.

....Are you referring to the S-tronic version? Unfortunately the version I'll be driving is an old fashioned manual - Pity, because the comparison would be more direct and I'm also interested how the S-tronic compares with DSG.

There's more than one way to have fun, Ben :cool:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Exactly what I was referring to! It wasn't a slur on the DSG box at all.

....Ah, sorry - I thought you were - Some people really dislike DSG/S-tronic but each to their own and I don't have a problem with someone's different opinion.

I'm now a bit confused - Are there Haldex transmission systems which Audi call quattro in some models? So that there is more than one version of quattro?

True quattro, Haldex, and LSD (on FWD), make interesting comparisons. So far, Haldex is my least favourite of the three as it feels heavier and more remote.

I experienced my Quaife diff for the first time in the wet yesterday - Awesome! It may as well have been dry! It transforms FWD.

The Mk6 GTI has an electronic LSD but I think I prefer the fit-n-forget mechanical Quaife which reacts directly physically rather than an ESP-led system. At least VW are acknowledging that one is needed!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Haldex is in the TT and A3 applications. Torsen is in anything up from that. Both are labelled "quattro" and Audi's marketing insists that a TT has "permanent" 4wd, however it is more accurately described as "permanently available."

Haldex is also used in VW models that share the same platforms and models of a similar size. R32, Golf TDi 4mo, Tiguan (sp?) use Haldex, Passat and Phaeton use Torsen.

I'll happily admit (after driving a new S3) that Haldex is getting better, but proper 4wd it isn't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Haldex is in the TT and A3 applications. Torsen is in anything up from that. Both are labelled "quattro" and Audi's marketing insists that a TT has "permanent" 4wd, however it is more accurately described as "permanently available."

Haldex is also used in VW models that share the same platforms and models of a similar size. R32, Golf TDi 4mo, Tiguan (sp?) use Haldex, Passat and Phaeton use Torsen.

I'll happily admit (after driving a new S3) that Haldex is getting better, but proper 4wd it isn't.

....Thanks for that explanation, Ben - Much appreciated +++.

It leaves me thinking that Audi are totally wrong to use the title "quattro" for what is Haldex "permanently available". If I bought an Audi which was stated by them to have "quattro" and it was anything less than the real thing, I would be consulting solicitors!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

....Thanks for that explanation, Ben - Much appreciated +++.

It leaves me thinking that Audi are totally wrong to use the title "quattro" for what is Haldex "permanently available". If I bought an Audi which was stated by them to have "quattro" and it was anything less than the real thing, I would be consulting solicitors!

Quite.. and they'll have to believe it's the same thing, probably without actually stating it IS the same thing.. very annoying.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

....

(I don't know whether to address you as "Sterno" or "Mastoid" - the rest is too much of a mouthful!) :grin:

Yes, the Mk5 GTI has TC as part of ESP. The ESP can be switched off via a button in front of the gear stick. The ESP always defaults to being On whenever the ignition is switched on. On the road I always drive with ESP On - Imo it's not a matter of proving you're a man by switching it Off! But different cars behave differently.

Don't ask me about the exact structure regarding TC and ESP on the Mk5 - It gets complicated! But the TC icon in the speedo lights up every time the wheels are losing traction and signifies the ESP coming to the rescue.

One result of having a mechanical diff like the Quaife is that the TC sensor system is less frequently called upon to instruct the ESP (or however it works). In other words, the ESP follows the Quaife's physical responses rather than rely on electronic sensors which can either go wrong or get dirty like my Wheel Speed Sensors did and which probably then fooled my ESP into action which caused wheel snatching in compensation - Not confidence inspiring!!

Someone who knows more than I do may post that I'm talking bollox but I offer this as being to the best of my knowledge.

Having spent as much as £1,500 on any mod, the placebo effect naturally comes into play - You say to yourself (or your SWMBO) "Of course it works well - I spent all that money on it and of course I make the best decisions". However, the Quaife is something which has such a physical result that it's not simply your butt-dyno. Whether spending the money is worth it to you or not can only be your decision but I have no regrets and everybody who has either done the same or owned a FWD car with LSD already installed, has nothing but good to say about it - It's an often overlooked mod.

If your ownership of a Mk5 GTI doesn't occasionally involve spirited driving (as appropriate) then it's not really worth it. Installation involves open heart surgery (by someone who really knows what they are doing on DSG) and you will not see any money back - You ain't gonna be removing it come sale time! But I love driving and am enjoying the benefits and have no plans to sell my GTI - It's too good an allrounder - Fun and very practical.

If you love track days (I haven't driven any) I'd say that the Quaife and a big brake kit like AP's are a must!! £3-grand for those two mods though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

....

I've learnt that the new Mk6 GTI electronic diff called XDS....

"...is actually still part of the gearbox, but is "controlled" by the ESP/ABS system, in the same way that the Mk5 EDL (Electronic Differential Lock) is. It basically works using "pulse width modulation" in exactly the same way as the Haldex controller - in that the "diff" itself can not "sense" the levels of torque (applied torque, wasted torque, and useable torque), like an ATB diff such as Torsen/Quaife/Peloquin can."

"...the Quaife is identical to Torsen - and a Torsen diff is used in the rear axles of the Audi R8 and Audi Q7, along with all centre diff applications in longitudinal mount VAG four wheel drive cars (except the Veyron, R8, and Q7)."

[Thanks to Sean aka Teutonic_Tamer]

So, which would I prefer? - A Haldex-style diff or a Torsen-style diff? - No brainer, the Torsen-style Quaife.

....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...