mb Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 I looked again at Fontain as they have some nice RS4 Avants in circa 36k about 3 years old & if went for one would then get a years warranty from Fontain so at least can get a feel for the car first. Early this year when they were nearer 30k was the time to have bought so I have however decided to wait & get a B8 S4 as whilst may not be so special running costs will be less & car will be newer. I also think RS4 prices are about to take a hit soon as they come out of warranty & petrol prices go up & B8 S4s come down in price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetrolDave Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 I also think RS4 prices are about to take a hit soon as they come out of warranty & petrol prices go up & B8 S4s come down in price. Don't bet on it - B7 RS4s are becoming scarcer and demand is , if anything getting stronger, so IMHO prices will continue to rise for a while. The B7 RS4 is not a "normal" mass produced vehicle that is bought by any car buyer, it is finally starting to be mostly bought by enthusiasts instead of partly by "fashion" people. Comparing S4 and RS4 prices is not really valid - look at the price difference between a B5 S4 and B5 RS4... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mb Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 That is a good point there will be a lot of people who want an RS4 & value the extra exculsivity so prices of good ones may still hold up well. I am just thinking that at 36k for a 56 plate with 25,000 miles vs 40k for a 2009 S4 is looking a bit hard to justify (to me anyway) already yet alone once the S4 prices have softened up for 6 months. That said the RS4s never seem to hang around long so I'm probably wrong & that Daytona Grey one at Fontain is lovely am just a bit put off by the "old model" really... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetrolDave Posted September 11, 2009 Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 I am just thinking that at 36k for a 56 plate with 25,000 miles vs 40k for a 2009 S4 is looking a bit hard to justify (to me anyway) already yet alone once the S4 prices have softened up for 6 months. When I was thinking of changing my S4 for an RS4 back in 2006 in wondered whether the £30k cost to upgrade was worth it, but once I drove the RS4 there was no doubt in my mind. The S4 is a soft lazy boulevard cruiser, but the RS4 is a performance machine at heart and a MUCH more satisfying drive. I know that is based on the B6/B7 S4, but I not seen any reviews of the B8 S4 that suggest it's any different in character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooch Posted September 13, 2009 Report Share Posted September 13, 2009 The B7 Rs4 is a great car, but not one of em make 420- you will be lucky to get 400. Pal of mine had to get his mapped by DMS to make 402! Coking is a REAL issue.... IF like a lot of owners you will be sitting in traffic jams on the way to the office and on the way home. I know of 6 cars that this has happened to and each one was a daily drive and the owner may go over 60 twice a year on holiday! If you have one, drive it like its stolen!! The DRC will become more of a problem as us RS6ers found out- it s EXACTLY the same, failure rates will soar now, its that time. I promise you that if they get to the extent that RS6 failures did and are, you will be soooo pissed off at the inconvienience of the car being off the road ALL the time that you will either bin the DRC at your own expense (a la moi) or bin the car. I had the new "upgraded" DRC installed on my RS6 under warranty 4 times in 8 months, the 5th time it lasted 2 weeks, and the dealers said "impossible- it cannot of gone already" It was nd it had, Coilovers and ARB's- best move I ever made. BTW... Buying and RS4 and worrying about thefuel consumption is a bit like buying a boat and worrying about getting it wet.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woppum Posted September 13, 2009 Report Share Posted September 13, 2009 yes they all make well under according the the dynos, know someone who got under 360bhp! However they all still go like the clappers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooch Posted September 13, 2009 Report Share Posted September 13, 2009 yes they all make well under according the the dynos, know someone who got under 360bhp! However they all still go like the clappers! :eek: I would be SOOOO ipssed orf if that were my car tho, Audi do state 420 PS but, still 360!! They are quick, but can you imagine what they would go like with the full shamozzel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted September 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 Hmmmm. I read this on the 246 forum and it seems it is an issue on some and not others. It didn't look like it was 55hp down on the M3 when Top Gear tested it against the M3 and C63. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron13 Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 It's all down to the Quattro and Dyno machines not being able to calculate the loss with 4wd. Huge thread over on RS246. 420 is Engine output not at the wheels as is normal. Frankly I think it's all a fuss over nothing as I had the 4.2 S4 before this and IMHO there is certainly a big difference in output and speed (quoted as 70 ish). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetrolDave Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 The B7 Rs4 is a great car, but not one of em make 420- you will be lucky to get 400. Pal of mine had to get his mapped by DMS to make 402! Is that rolling road figures, or standing 1/4 mile figures? Rolling road figures vary by 60bhp on the RS4, so they are IMHO totally meaningless as absolute numbers. Only standing 1/4 mile can be used for checking absolute bhp. Coking is a REAL issue.... IF like a lot of owners you will be sitting in traffic jams on the way to the office and on the way home. I know of 6 cars that this has happened to and each one was a daily drive and the owner may go over 60 twice a year on holiday! Yes they coke, like all FSI/GDI engines do. But, does that affect the power? The jury is out on that one... The place to look for a proper, sensible (and sometimes heated) discussion of RS4 power and coking issues is on RS246.com :: The World's #1 Audi S and RS Enthusiast Website The DRC will become more of a problem as us RS6ers found out- it s EXACTLY the same, failure rates will soar now, its that time. I promise you that if they get to the extent that RS6 failures did and are, you will be soooo pissed off at the inconvienience of the car being off the road ALL the time that you will either bin the DRC at your own expense (a la moi) or bin the car.I had the new "upgraded" DRC installed on my RS6 under warranty 4 times in 8 months, the 5th time it lasted 2 weeks, and the dealers said "impossible- it cannot of gone already" It was nd it had, Coilovers and ARB's- best move I ever made. Audi have extended the warranty on the RS4 DRC system to 5 years and have redesigned the struts - so they have tacitly acknowledged the issue and done something about it, which they failed to do on the C5 RS6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooch Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 Dave, I am a member of RS246 and AudiSRS.com :: The place for performance Audi where all the b5 boys went, and although Audi may have acknowledged the failure, the redesigned strut still does not work. Ask grizz, MRC or QST. C5 RS6 boys in the states have been given a fix, but it is only what we had 12 months ago. As for coking- talk to Pippyrips or Rspaul, as for power loss again any of the above will confirm what i have said- in their experience. The RR which was used was Surrey, and as you correctly say, the only way to test it absolutely is on the 1/4, but charlie at Surrey RR knows his onions, and we (all 246 and SRS) trust his dyno. BTW DT losses for the RS6 about 100hp, but much less for the b5 and B7, some figures that I have heard mentioned are between 30 and 70 bhp. I am not in anyway slating the car, I nearly bought one, and had it not been for the arrival of my daughter, somewhat unexpectedly, I would be driving one today- less the DRC. If you are on 246 you will know the design timeline and history of the evolution of the DRC so I wont bore you with it, but it is EXACTLY the same as the RS6 DRC and the redesigned struts are also the same for B7 and C5...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetrolDave Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 The RR which was used was Surrey, and as you correctly say, the only way to test it absolutely is on the 1/4, but charlie at Surrey RR knows his onions, and we (all 246 and SRS) trust his dyno. Flywheel figures on ANY wheel dyno are based on a GUESS of powertrain losses so they are not in any way suitable for assessing the engine power output, only for comparing different cars of the same model or changes made to the same car. The recent RR day that rr246 organised was very useful because it compared many RS4s and highlighted faults that some of them had (such as open vacuum pipes causing the power flap not to open). Count me out of the "all 246" that trust Surrey RR dyno - I don't trust ANY wheel dyno when measuring engine output, only an engine dyno can do that, and many other members of rs246 feel the same way as you know from the often heated and personal discussions there on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max_b Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 It's all down to the Quattro and Dyno machines not being able to calculate the loss with 4wd. Huge thread over on RS246. 420 is Engine output not at the wheels as is normal. Frankly I think it's all a fuss over nothing as I had the 4.2 S4 before this and IMHO there is certainly a big difference in output and speed (quoted as 70 ish). This I agree with, as once this car gets moving you really need to move to cars with lots more power to feel/see any real difference. Most cars in the 340/450 bhp are fair bait for the RS4 and whether it achieves 420 or not on the rolling road really makes little difference on real road driving as you know there is enough power under right foot to play with. I would imagine most people buying the RS4 are not buying for 'just' the '420ps' but the overall package, as there are lots of other cars offering similiar types of power Just my 0.02p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooch Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 Dave, I think we may be in danger of getting away Ot (my fault), but the point is, the B7 RS4 has issues, and any persective buyer should be aware of them. The RR is only a guide, but a good one. if you get a good one. Some RR's are abismal granted, a 1mb pressure drop or incorrectly entered can have huge gains or losses, but lets face it, its what most of have to go on, including the 3 major tuners in the country. All of which have won tuner of the year, several times in MRC's case. MTM use a dyno to prove their results as do custom code and MRC. Guy chamberlin dyno'd my car once, and his sentiments were very similar to yours, but he put a bit more faith in his own ability to operate and run a dyno, as does Charlie. Even calculating it on the 1/4 mile has its variables....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mook Posted September 15, 2009 Report Share Posted September 15, 2009 Flywheel figures on ANY wheel dyno are based on a GUESS of powertrain losses so they are not in any way suitable for assessing the engine power output, only for comparing different cars of the same model or changes made to the same car. Sorry, Dave, not quite correct. When a wheel dyno is set up properly, the drivetrain losses are calculated from the torque (resistance) on run down after the dyno run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetrolDave Posted September 15, 2009 Report Share Posted September 15, 2009 (edited) When a wheel dyno is set up properly, the drivetrain losses are calculated from the torque (resistance) on run down after the dyno run. That means that the vast majority of dynos are NOT setup correctly then. And if the owners of the dynos can't set them up correctly to measure the powertrain losses, then how can their results be treated as "gospel"? Anyway, we've gone way OT. The only issue I am aware of that is PROVEN with the RS4 is the DRC issue. Based on incorrectly setup wheel dynos some people believe that there is a power loss issue, but since that's based on suspect data it is not valid to list it as an issue. What I know for sure is that my "414bhp" RS4 is a hell of a lot quicker than my "344 bhp" S4s ever were. Edited September 15, 2009 by PetrolDave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooch Posted September 15, 2009 Report Share Posted September 15, 2009 Amen brother, amen. (but surely thats because even allowing for shite dynos 70 hp is quite a lot.....and obviously a B6 S4 or a standardish B5 S4) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted September 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 No probs going off topic - all useful stuff for someone who might want to buy one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooch Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 You may be interested in reading this B7 RS4 Development Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted September 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 I've now decided car forums are a rubbish place to get enthused about a car! BUT, I guess no car is perfect but these guys make it out like the thing is a heap of rubbish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron13 Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 Interesting. But I notice they still use a rolling road to calculate the baseline BHP and not some sort of engine / bench set up. So we still have no categoric level of BHP at the engine which is what is claimed by Audi. Yes the obviously get some more out of it with the exhaust / ports etc etc which is great but to be expected really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooch Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 Rubbish it (the car)aint- by any stretch f the old grey stuff. I think the owner (pippyrips) was truely disapointed with it. i mean, youd be a triffle miffed if you found what he had after 20k miles.... MRC also calculate hp thru a whole plethora of sums and data, not just off the dyno, but I am buggered if i know how! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mook Posted September 18, 2009 Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 You can calc theorteical power with data, but a dyno is the only real way to measure torque produced, which is what power is calculated from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_G Posted September 18, 2009 Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 I will pitch in briefly and say that I agree with Petrol Dave about the histeria over RS4's and what problems they do or do not have. And am probably better placed than some having taken my car to 4 different rolling roads in the same service period and got anywhere between 357 bhp and 396 bhp. At no time has any of the rolliing roads been set up in the same conditions, some in sealed cells, some not, some shoot_8, some shoot_44. All that can be said about rolling roads is they are a good guide or base line for modifications and can provide evidence of faults, but don't take them as gospel as to actual engine power. Get a racelogic box for that. And it can still do 0-60 in 4.9 with me driving it unprofessionally so imagine what it can do in the hands of a professional. BTW the 396 bhp I got was with a vacuum line fault and the ECU had turned the wick down slightly, I have not been back since it was fixed. As to engine coking, like Dave said all FSI / GDI engines do this and on record there only appear to be a handful of smaller capacity FSI engines that have failed becaise of it from millions produced. Given my car is one of the higher mileage RS4's around with 50+K miles mine should be ckied to buggery yet it makes mor eon a rolling road than almost most other OEM RS4's of any mileage. So the effect of coking long term is unproven and perhaps not as much of an issue as suggested. I am not saying there is no issue and MRC's development catch tank will probably be of benefit to true enthusiasts. I have now had my car for 2 years, covered 37000+ miles in that time and have no intentions of changing and I normally change cars every 18-24 months. It is a fantastic car, dynamically far superior to an S4 with the power far more usable and applicable to the road I have had DRC replaced once with modified parts and there has been no weeping or leaks thus far in the 11 months I have had them on the car. And contrary to what has been said on this thread the DRC on the B7 RS4 is version II rather than that on the C5 RS6 and as said it now has a 5 year 70,000 mile warranty from date fitted on the modified strutts. My largest cost has been with brakes but servicing can be done for around £200 for AVS 1 and £350 for AVS 2, tyres will set you back at best £600 for all four, it may drink the occasional litre of oil every few thousand miles inbetween services, DRC is under warranty and the biggest cost would be replacement disks and pads. Do not be put off, the B7 RS4 is an utterly fabulous car and I know I will find it hard to replace with it's all round capability and ability to make me smile every day I drive it to the point I am thinking of keeping it for a very long time until hopefully classic cars status. It's that good and not much 2 door or 4 door exotica will get away from it and certainly nothing for the same money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted September 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2009 Hmmm. I like your last point. My car is with AMD at the moment getting serviced etc and I asked the chap who runs it what his view on the RS4 was; he was hugely complimentary and said not to worry. However, he then said if he was spending that sort of money, he would be looking at a 996 Turbo. Having looked into the market this afternoon, it makes an interesting alternative, especially if I just keep the LCR as a runabout. Exciting decisions to be made next year ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now