E46 M3 vs Audi S4 B6

[neemz]

evening everyone, i had written a nice post then when i hit submit my browser died, gutted. so this one will be considerably briefer which is probably for the benefit of you all.

i am a bmw nut. the last 10 cars have been a variety of e39s and e46s. 330 coupes, 540s, 525s, sports, se's, i've had the lot. 6 cylinder bmw engines, rear wheel drive, decent interiors and cheap motoring. i have built up my knowledge on the common faults, vanos problems, fault codes and so on from lurking the bmw forums over the past few years. now we have my biased views out the way here is my predicament.

i am finally in a position where i can buy my dream car - the e46 m3. my budget is around £10k. prices have been hit on second hand cars in the last few months and i expect them to keep diving given the economic state & christmas being on the way. £10K gets you a clean 2002-3 60k m3 with the HK sound system (must have, i don't really care about the other options like TV, heated seats or whatever). i've driven my friends m3 on a few occasions, and have owned a few 330s so i know what to expect when it comes to ownership & the testdrive.

the issue i have is another mate recommended me the b6 s4. having owned an e39 540 before the idea of an even more powerful v8 with 4 wheel drive appeals a lot. in some ways i like the understaded looks vs the in your face m3. but then part of me thinks "f**k it" i'm dropping 10k on a car, i want it to look special. the problem i have with the audi is i know bugger all about them, nothing. common faults, options, stuff like that. the insurance is cheaper on the s4, probably they get nicked less and put backwards into hedges (explains the huge numbers of cat d m3's on the market). but no doubt the fuel bills are higher. i only do 4000 miles a year so they would cancel each other out.

i would welcome opinions here on audi s4 nuts and those that have owned both cars. what is the audi all about? i heard they are more bumpy than the bmw generally? but the m3 is quite a crashy ride in my opinion. thanks all.

[Mook]

I've had an S4 and yes, the V8 and the sure-footed grip is great, but, given the choice between the two (assuming you want a saloon or coupe - I had the estate because I needed one) then I'd choose the M3. It's a more involving and rewarding drive.

Yes, the S4 is a fairly hard ride, but then so is the M3.

[SINGH]

I'd take the M3, I know it's cliche but they do handle like their on rails, much nicer to drive then the B6 S4 IMO. Drive them both though, there was a top gear review on them both and the S4 beat the M3 around a dry track, had it been wet. It probably would have beat it by a lot more.

[rottenbend]

Welcome to TSN Neemz!

I'm enjoying Paul's 540

Having also owned a B6 S4 Avant, I think Mook makes a lot of valid points. The S4 has a very hard wooden ride IMO. The engine is epic especially when mated to an aftermarket exhaust. Quattro is also great but traction isn't too shabby on an M3 if driven properly. The Quattro also adds lots of weight and friction which hits fuel economy. I struggled to get more than 19mpg at any point. They also have a tendency to eat the outside of the front tyres.

The M3 is much more fluid and precise (the B6 S4 has a 50/50 split system and tends towards safety understeer. It's a more focused machine.

It may not be a consideration for you but I had to sell my S4 because the family could not get on with the agressive and hard ride. They're all girls - what do you expect!

[Biscuits]

I loved the sound of the S4's V8... with the cat-back Milltek it is the best sounding car i've owned... an RS4 Cab is on my list of cars to own, simply because of the gorgeous sound Audi have got from their V8. I had the Avant btw.

However, back to the S4 and the ride is very harsh, you feel your internal organs bounce about, even on the motorway... coupled with incredible understeer... made for a very numb driving experience, which I got fed up with and changed for a 535d.

The M3 is a totally different drive, very direct and rewarding. (consider the CSL steering rack if you can as an upgrade, it makes the front end very direct, but you still have all the luxury of a standard M3). The engine sounds OK, but in the same way an F1 car sounds OK compared to the SLS safety car!

Other than thick snow and ice, which the M3 can still handle with a bit of care due to the diff, the BM is the better car.

[NewNiceMrMe]

Whichever you opt for you'll be getting an excellent car.

The S4 has the lovely sound of a V8 whereas the M3 has a completely different but very engaging straight six shrill tone.

I'd always take the M3 (I've had two E46 M3's in the past, a Coupe and a Cab) purely because I think it is the more rewarding car to drive (and yes I've driven an S4) but there is a bias based on past ownership there.

One thing, friendly advice more than anything, if you're paying £10k for one remember caveat emptor. Get the Double VANOS checked out, make sure the car has the best service history possible and personally I'd want a full inspection. If the VANOS goes, you have the same kind of bill on your hands as the full price you're paying for the car. Also, don't fall into the trap an awful lot of people do - it is still a £40-45k car to own and run. Tyres will cost you £800 a set and you'll get 12k out of them. Servicing isn't to be skimped on so find a good independent dealer. They are strong engines and cars but if something does go wrong you'll have very big bills. Get each of the springs checked too - they are notorious for snapping. Both of my cars suffered snapped springs and both were 9 months old when I sold them.

[Woppum]

Drive both, but you will findvthe BMW to be a much better car.

[Scotty]

Here's the Top Gear Report : http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul_scott/S4_report_top_gear.pdf

I too had the S4. Very hard riding and not as involving as a drivers car..... however if you're not a driving god then the S4 will be the fastest A to B car .... however whilst you're gloating about getting there first the M3 driver will have a much bigger grin.

It's coming up to Autumn so poor roads will mean you won't find people in M3's to play with. Coz it can bite I found owners simply wouldn't play. The S4 is more confidence inspiring and can make you look like a better driver than you are. It also means you could be playing far harder on public roads than perhaps you should.

They really are quite different so try to get a drive in both and then go with what you prefer

[SINGH]

MrMe, can the vanos really cost about £10k to sort!? I was actully thinking of getting an E46 M3 myself soon but that's scared the life out of me!

[NewNiceMrMe]

MrMe, can the vanos really cost about £10k to sort!? I was actully thinking of getting an E46 M3 myself soon but that's scared the life out of me!

Everything about expensive high performance saloons remains the same in price except the purchase price in my opinion.

If Vanos goes then the engine is gone. If the engine is gone then it's about £5500 for a used one (there is one online at present with 63k on at that price). A new one is £9k. Fitting is about £2k to £3k, so whilst it was a slight exaggeration to say it would be the same as buying the car at £10k - it still means you've pretty much written the money off if it happens.

[SINGH]

I know only to well how that feels, my S8s engine blew up 1-2k miles after having a new

Gearbox fitted, it's been sitting for 4 months now...!

I'd most likely try and get an aftermarket warranty if I got one.

[Woppum]

Here's the Top Gear Report : http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul_scott/S4_report_top_gear.pdf

I too had the S4. Very hard riding and not as involving as a drivers car..... however if you're not a driving god then the S4 will be the fastest A to B car .... however whilst you're gloating about getting there first the M3 driver will have a much bigger grin.

It's coming up to Autumn so poor roads will mean you won't find people in M3's to play with. Coz it can bite I found owners simply wouldn't play. The S4 is more confidence inspiring and can make you look like a better driver than you are. It also means you could be playing far harder on public roads than perhaps you should.

They really are quite different so try to get a drive in both and then go with what you prefer

I know the csl was a different car to the m3, especially in the set up I had it in, but on a dry road the rs4 didn't see which way I went. The rs4 suffered in my opinion of heavy engine over the front wheel syndrome. When the weight is that far forward a car isn't very quick on it's feet when it comes to changing direction. The s4 I'm sure will suffer from the same problem.

I'm not one that puts as much in to 4wd over rwd in the wet. It is obviously far better getting off the line but when you have the momentum, with a little skill think the m3 is a very planted car with a very neutral stance (50/50 weight disribution). I would be more concerned about understeer in the s4.

As said you have to try both and as Scotty says the m3 is much more rewarding, but it is not hard to drive or twitchy. It is a very easy safe car with one of the best engines out there.

[Mook]

If you're talking CSL versus RS4, then it'd be CSL every day. You really need to drive both - hard - before you make a call on each.

[Daz]

But the csl is slower than an rs4, as proved at Santa pod a few years ago with me out dragging Sita3 in his csl. Woppum was a witness I believe

[Mook]

If you're into drag racing or traffic light grands prix, then that's obviously a crucial factor to you

So how quick is that Datsun of yours Daz, compared to the Mitsushiti or Toyota?

[Woppum]

on track the audi (s) wouldnt see which way the BMW's went

[Woppum]

But the csl is slower than an rs4, as proved at Santa pod a few years ago with me out dragging Sita3 in his csl. Woppum was a witness I believe

Lol, then Sita3 beat me and got a longer time than an S3...

[Scotty]

on track the audi (s) wouldnt see which way the BMW's went

Coz they'd be facing the wrong way !

[SINGH]

on track the audi (s) wouldnt see which way the BMW's went

I know it's not the most accurate test but the RS 4 was 3 seconds quicker then the CSL around the Top Gear track. And the standard S4 was nearly 2 seconds quicker then a standard M3.

Still, I know the grin factor of the BMW would far outweigh any quicker time the Audi could put out and I'd chose the M3 over any Audi to go round a track in anytime.

[Woppum]

I know it's not the most accurate test but the RS 4 was 3 seconds quicker then the CSL around the Top Gear track. And the standard S4 was nearly 2 seconds quicker then a standard M3.

Still, I know the grin factor of the BMW would far outweigh any quicker time the Audi could put out and I'd chose the M3 over any Audi to go round a track in anytime.

The csl was in the wet on cups if I'm not mistaken, not really a fair test. From memory the csl was over 20 seconds faster than the rs4 round the ring. From experience the csl is a much faster car on track than an rs4, in fact I would go as far as to say the two are not comparable. It's fair to compare. Csl to a 996 gt3, not an rs4 really.

[Mook]

the two are not comparable. It's fair to compare. Csl to a 996 gt3, not an rs4 really.

Completely agree

[neemz]

thank you everyone for your replies, it was great reading all of them. some of the points you raised i had written about in my first post which i lost when my browser crashed.

thank you for the welcome rottenbend, i had seen in your car history s4 ownership so i was hoping you would reply with your views. i hope the 540 is treating you well?

the s4 vs the m3 round the track on top gear video. i had watched it prior to posting and it confirmed all my suspicions; there is not a world of difference between the two cars in a drag or on the track. i would consider myself a good driver, but no expert by any means. i do not do heal and toe (see below), or other such things. but i do enjoy a good spirited drive every now and then. in the real world most of the time will be light commuting, going to tesco, stuff like that.

bmw's have made me lazy, specifically the auto gearbox. i am going to get murdered on here for writing this, but one of the pros of the M3 for me is the fact you can get an SMG and stick it in auto. from my reading i know that when "pressing on" one would certainly get a better response from a manual gearbox, but having driven my friends m3 a few times that clutch in town would do my nut in. on/off. i don't actually rag it that much, why am i considering two 20 mpg sporty motors then? because i know that when i have to overtake i can do it quickly and safely and enjoy the engine when the road permits.

the engine note of the s4 is the big win for me. that v8 with the miltek sounds spectacular. if the car doesn't have the miltek that adds another circa £1000 to the purchase price however! i sat in my neighbours b7 s4 at the weekend and we went for a brief spin. the interior is screwed together better than the bmw, and the bmw is no shed. but it just felt so utilitarian like a surgeons office. the seats were nice, but nothing between them and the m3 for me. i like the practicality of the 4 door saloon, that is one of the reasons i love my old 5 series barges. i can chuck stuff in the back from wickes, shirts, mates, no problem. i didn't get a chance to listen to the stereo. i know the bmw with the hk sound system is reasonable for my demands. i enjoy listening to music in the car when i'm driving around so that is another very important feature for me. is the audi bose system similar, or better?

from the posts you have all written it seems like the m3 would be the better choice. all told i think i would have to spend a couple more grand on getting the right s4, and then i have to take the exhaust into consideration. i really need to drive them back to back and spend more time in an s4 saloon. are there any members near high wycombe that would consider taking me for a spin in theirs? i don't like wasting dealers time and pretending i am interested in their overpriced car and then have to listen to all their speil when i am trying to form my own opinion.

[Woppum]

I'm close but don't have one anymore. From the sounds of what you want the s4 would probably suit you more. The clutch is very light in the Audi compared to the BMW and would probably suit. Smg is a pig in auto, you have to drive with the paddles. As you have said you need to drive both.

[NewNiceMrMe]

Smg is a pig in auto, you have to drive with the paddles.

Agreed. Pointless buying an SMG M3 if you intend to run it in full auto most of the time - not because it hinders the car, but because it makes it more juddery than a juddery thing on a juddery road in judderville.

[gizze]

I have owned far too many cars over the last 10 years including the S4 and the M3 (both smg in the CSL and the regular M3), other have including things like 1.9tdi A6 estate, 535d sport touring, 335i and then Audi A2 and Toyota Aygo.

Hand on heart, best all rounder was the standard M3 with SMG 'box and the worst car I have ever owned was the B6 S4 with manual 'box, it just failed in so many ways it was unreal as far as I was concerned, maybe going from the CSL to the S4 was not the smartest choice, but I just kept thinking, for this sort of handling and performance I may as well be back in a BMW Diesel estate, quicker and more fun and a hell of a lot less to run.

The SMG is awesome imho, and I am an auto only man, but it added something really special without all the hassle of dipping a clutch in traffic every 10 seconds, as someone who does 45k miles a year that is important to me.

I would get another S4, but it would be tiptronic and it would be a workhorse, a fast workhorse, but a workhorse and no more. I bought it expecting it to be a sports car, and it certainly aint that!