Tipex Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 One thing I would say, is not to lump together the holiday entitlement, and the allowing hours off for appointments etc. The allowing hours off for appointments or whatever is the decent thing to do, and hopefully it is reflected by the member of staff putting extra hours in if required without questioning it, it's give and take, you may need them to do a bit of overtime, but in return, you allow them out to the dentist, or to care for a family member etc. But you shouldn't (imo) use that to balance out the holiday entitlement, they are separate things. I wonder if it would be worth calling your local college or university and asking the tutors if they have any particularly creative students that fit your requirements? it could be a good opportunity to find some untapped talent and perhaps offer some work experience, or offer them your design brief for the tutors to use as an assignment? most colleges or universities are very receptive to this and like to have links to local businesses. Or we could get some cameras and film The Apprentice TSN style, bagsie I'm 'The Brand' Bags! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 That's interesting Paul. Out of interest what size company are we talking about? Obviously a completely different sector, 700 odd employees, with international prescence. Sales in the region of £70M. I appreciate a big fish in the pond, with financials to match, but they still felt they needed to to come up to expectations of the employees, both current and future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted March 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 One thing I would say, is not to lump together the holiday entitlement, and the allowing hours off for appointments etc.The allowing hours off for appointments or whatever is the decent thing to do, and hopefully it is reflected by the member of staff putting extra hours in if required without questioning it, it's give and take, you may need them to do a bit of overtime, but in return, you allow them out to the dentist, or to care for a family member etc. But you shouldn't (imo) use that to balance out the holiday entitlement, they are separate things. Fair comment again, I'm just trying to demonstrate that in the general scheme of 'time off' I don't have massive issues where it is needed and I do make an effort. I'm pretty sure most other companies would take a much sterner line than I do. For example, it's very common for someone to ask if they can have a lift to pick their car up from a service or similar, at maybe 3pm or 4pm, and I'll happily let them go and take them myself or someone else will. I think most larger companies would have issues with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malagus Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 It's a very tough climate at the moment in terms of recruitment and selection, as the field of applicants is much broader than it has been in the past. Makes it much harder if you're doing the process all on your own. What I will say, is that I think a vital part is finding a person who is the right fit for your company. Although it's easier when taking on entry-level roles to focus on fit rather than outright skills, at any level, fit into the company culture and ethic is essential. If you don't like the person and how they come across, they probably won't work out. This is especially the case in SMEs, where one employee has a much greater impact, and the cost of employee turnover is relatively greater. It may be a pain and an arduous process, but finding the right person is vital. I don't think you are being particularly harsh in the process (though I have no knowledge of that industry), i've been through countless recruitment processes over the past 4 years, as well as studying it in depth at uni. I don't think it's perfect, but no process is. One thing I will say is stick at it. I took the job I have because I liked the company. They really look after us, and the conditions, benefits and culture are great. The salary, is, in my opinion, a bit crap, but not unreasonable for entry-level, but the company really looks after you. We have a pool table and dart board in the office. The top achievers are in New York at the moment on an incentive trip, and to give us a taste of the US, we had an American-style breakfast today on the company. Last night we watched the United game on the plasma in the meeting room with some beers. That's what matters to me. It doesn't feel like work. I do have an SLA to meet, but as long as I do, how I do it is irrelevant. That freedom means a huge amount to me, more than 2 days more off a year or another £1000. What exemplifies it to me is that today I e-mailed my boss and asked if I could leave an hour early on monday if I worked through lunch, because I'd been invited to an event. 'No problem' was the reply. That is what I love. There are c400 people there who feel the same way, and I'm certain there are more out there who want that, and you seem to offer it. Best of luck, I hope you don't have to weed through too many poor candidates to find the right person! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted March 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 One thing I know staff would say is it's a great atmosphere and good office to work in. Even the guy who's gone to London gave it very serious consideration before going and I believe him when he said it's the only opportunity he would have left us for, because it's simply far too good to turn down. However, even he's said he knows he's going to miss the pool table, the laughs and the close-knit team ethic - and he's going to have to deal with a lot more levels of management. When I started the company I tried to create an environment I would have wanted to work in. That meant doing my utmost to make it feel relaxed but productive - and for staff not to have that "Oh, it's a work day" feeling when the alarm clock went off. I know that's impossible every day of every year, but in the main I know they'd say they don't feel like that. We, like anyone else, have our fraught moments and the odd raised voice or argument - but I could count on one hand how many times that has occured in the last year. Malagus is of course right that personalities are critical in an SME, especially a small business. It's imperative that we all get along with each other. Even one slightly frayed relationship can destroy productivity or create tensions that everyone feels and I can't afford to have that. A good example as to how I try to make it a flexible culture would be that until the end of last year our office hours had always been 9am to 5.30pm with an hour for lunch. Not all staff took the hour for lunch, but it was there. I then began to realise that the hour for lunch was possibly redundant - so I asked staff to vote on if they'd like to change lunch to 30 minutes and shut up the offices at 5pm instead. There was no pressure on either way. They immediately said yes and now we're all out for 5pm and it's amazing what a difference that has made. We get the odd client who mentions they've rang after 5pm and not got an answer, but they're told why and they all accept it (they were all told in advance anyway, but you always get some who forget). They can get me by email 24/7 if they want to anyway and most also have my mobile number, so there has been no real client impact but it was a change implemented in 48 hours. I've decided I will re-advertise, for certain. I'd rather wait and get the right person than regret a bad appointment for a very long time, and having read all the feedback above I'm not inclined to want to change holidays - but perhaps what I will do is wait and see if a person is a star performer and instead of offering them the financial incentives of wage increases I'll give the opportunity of extra days holiday instead. It's a strange one for me because holidays have never been a big thing. I've got a lead database developer who got to the end of last year with 12 of 22 days left! He had to be forced to take them. I've not taken a day this year, though I do work from home on occasion but that's certainly not a day off as I end up working a much longer day! But perhaps if someone who's a star with a young family was to come in, then maybe that's a different matter because they would value family time much more and I would respect that. My view is an old fashioned one, without doubt and I recognise it. I still think there are plenty of people out there with the same values though, and sometimes parity of working ethic and values can be key to success in a business as small as ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinspark Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 I think you're getting very confused and blurring the boundaries between the 'great place to work' stuff, like shorter lunch in exchange for earlier finish and time off for family emergencies etc., with the entitlement for annual leave. You seem to believe that you're offering more flexibility than a larger operation, and that's part of your justification for offering annual leave entitlement that's in the dark ages and well behind what is to be expected for relatively senior roles. However, my experience is that even large corporates have realised that allowing some flexibility in working hours is good and also that allowing time off here and there for emergencies etc. breeds loyalty and happiness in the employee. You may think that wanting 5 weeks annual leave doesn't fit with your work ethic, but I can guarantee there are people looking at the role and deciding you're way behind the times and stuck in your ways... I have to say that your posts here haven't really sold your business to me! - and it's not that I'm lazy etc., I often keep up with email whilst on annual leave etc., it's just what I've become accustomed to and how I now plan my life... my over-riding feeling is that you're cutting out quite a number of potential employees with your stance at the moment. Of course, I may be completely off the mark - and I'm not sure if you've stated the terms before interview or not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chick Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 I reckon MrMe will throw your cv in the bin then ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuprabob Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Not met an owner of a business who doesn't think that their business has a great work environment and is great place to work. As said on a number of post previously, different people have different priorities at different times in their life. Personally for me holidays are not a big thing. I think Malagus has made some good points. It's important that new person fits into the culture and is likely to get on with the majority of the people. You can't get on with everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy2shots Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Not met an owner of a business who doesn't think that their business has a great work environment and is great place to work. As said on a number of post previously, different people have different priorities at different times in their life. Personally for me holidays are not a big thing.. Very true. MrMe I know my opinion counts for nothing but here goes. Your talking a lot about what a great place you are to work for and that at times you can be very helpful and flexable with your staff. That's great, really good for those that work for you. That's the point though, the people that you are interviewing DON'T work for you and can only go on facts. You telling them what a great boss you are and how happy your staff team are means bu66ger all, it's just patter. All they want to know is facts and what their contract will say regarding working hours and time off. If company A offers 20 days paid holiday a year and the manager/director/owner says but I will also let you go early sometimes, and take you to get your car from the garage. but Company B offers 25 days paid holiday a year and does not mention anything else, most people will go for company B (for this example all other factors are equal). It's because it's in their contract and not hear say. The way you work may help you keep your staff and even keep the work place happy but it has zero influence for new candidates. You have also stated you made your annual leave policy and have never needed to change it. Alarm bells??????? How many years have you been operating? 10 years ago when we started our business our staff were given 4 weeks paid holiday per year, it now stands at 5.6 weeks. Granted the working pattern is different to your sector but you get the drift of how things change over the years. Your current staff probably don't complain as they are used to it or know no different but it could be a factor for new staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m4ttm4son Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Just to add to the hype on holidays. I get the same leave - 20 days plus bank holidays and I have little problem with it. I work in a small company which is close to being under-staffed already. I am in the same mind-set of "more money, please, feck the holiday" which you seem to value. What if these people are happy with their financial situation (partner may earn more) and like to work hard when they're at work and know that they need the time away to re-fuel? Having a pool table and tv at work is all well and good, but I know I'd rather save up that (IMO) "wasted" time and go home instead. Totally agree with the comments about informal emails :smashfreak: But then, I seem to get many people's back up with over-formal emails Can't win. A question which hasn't been raised - What is the age group of the applicants, and has the role be advertised now changed since the current guy started? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted March 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 your justification for offering annual leave entitlement that's in the dark ages and well behind what is to be expected for relatively senior roles. I'd love to see where your facts are for that comment. It is the average entitlement across the UK. Go and look, you'll find it is factual. 20 days plus 8 statutory. Senior roles in small companies are also very, very different from senior roles in large organisations where resource is often more readily available and absence is not noticed anything like as much. but I can guarantee there are people looking at the role and deciding you're way behind the times and stuck in your ways... Look, sorry, but again you're wrong when only 2 people have mentioned it and every single one of the other applicants is on 20 days. Again, you're thinking that the large organisation is typical when it simply isn't. stated the terms before interview or not... Indeed I have, holiday terms stated within the advertisement. As for selling my business to you, well that wasn't the aim of this. It was all about feedback and I'm not quite sure how feedback amounts to quoting inaccurate facts? Your 'facts' about dark ages and what is the norm are simply incorrect. Go and look online, you'll find I'm right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted March 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Very true.MrMe I know my opinion counts for nothing but here goes. Your talking a lot about what a great place you are to work for and that at times you can be very helpful and flexable with your staff. That's great, really good for those that work for you. That's the point though, the people that you are interviewing DON'T work for you and can only go on facts. You telling them what a great boss you are and how happy your staff team are means bu66ger all, it's just patter. All they want to know is facts and what their contract will say regarding working hours and time off. I think I need to clarify something here - none of these people don't want the role. You're making it sound as though people don't want the job because of the terms - that's simply not true and I've never said it. The point is - the quality of applicants isn't what I want or expect, there's a very big difference. If company A offers 20 days paid holiday a year and the manager/director/owner says but I will also let you go early sometimes, and take you to get your car from the garage.but Company B offers 25 days paid holiday a year and does not mention anything else, most people will go for company B (for this example all other factors are equal). Will they? If Company B is paying 20-30% less in most cases? Plus, Company B is actually very very rare in this sector - again there are a lot of posts here making assumptions when the facts bear out a very different story. You have also stated you made your annual leave policy and have never needed to change it. Alarm bells??????? How many years have you been operating? Again - look, we're concentrating on holidays here. I've already said, it really isn't a huge issue when only 2 people have asked it out of 60+ applications. I wished I'd never mentioned holidays now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted March 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 A question which hasn't been raised - What is the age group of the applicants, and has the role be advertised now changed since the current guy started? Broad, anywhere between 24 and 45. Yes the role has moved on but what I'm advertising is the original role - with the scope for a lot of financial improvement as their responsibilities and commitments increase (see earlier post, the guy who's left was on 50% more than the advertised role and had seen those increases over a 2 year period). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chick Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 as painful as it is MrMe, I'd have to say stick to your guns and do the gruelling interview process until you find the right person, he/she will be out there but it seems a sign of the times nowadays that you have to sift through so many other candidates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted March 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 p.s. Twinspark, I'm sorry to have to say your application has been unsuccessful on the grounds that you're clearly a work-shy git who puts assumptions into reports without looking up the facts first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopsta Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 I work for an SME and our starting holiday allowance is the same as Chris with increases up to 25 days. Horses for courses, if the total package is not what you want then feel free to find another job that suits your needs. Post redundancy I dropped from 26 to 20 days but I'm now on 23 days IIRC. The increasing scale does reward staff for their longevity IMO. I'm recruiting at the mo and it's surprising how finicky some people can be, wanting Gym memberships, paying for travel to interviews. Out of interest Chris, do you do your own advertising or do you use an agency to cut the wheat from the chaff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinspark Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 MrMe... only 2 have mentioned it. How many have not put in an application because of it? Try taking it off the advert and see how that impacts on the candidates you're seeing. That's the one sure way to find out if it is having a detrimental effect on the people before you. My personal feeling is that you're under-estimating the importance of it in an overall reward package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted March 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Own advertising, largely put out there via social media. Always gets a big response because of the sector and the number of people that use social media in our industry. We only follow 3-4 accounts but have circa 1,500 followers on Twitter and a lot of staff at other companies like ours are amongst them, so the message gets out there very quickly indeed. We have used recruitment agencies previously, though more for the development roles (MySQL). The problem is I don't think I've had any better calibre than our own adverts - it's just sometimes quicker but you get a nice big bill at the end of it (if this one went to an agency then I know I'll end up with a bill of at least £6,500 + VAT). To be honest I'm not a fan of agencies and we've had issues with them previously too. If someone asked me to pay their expenses to an interview they'd get a very short reply. I've travelled to the other end of the country for an interview before (even though the position was local, Head office was in London) and would never have dreamt of asking for them to pay my costs. Ultimately I view it as part of the demonstration of commitment and enthusiasm for a post. The interesting thing about Gym memberships is that we have a meeting room that is never used and I once asked if people would be interested if I threw a treadmill, step thingy and stuff in there. Everyone looked at me as if I was stark raving mad. So I asked about Gym memberships and everyone said "Can't we just stick to our McMuffin breakfasts?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasdrury Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Another point (probably not relevant but I am a bit lost on this thread now!) - MrMe you have stated that large 'corporates' are inflexible and you can't have time for personal reasons, etc - I think that is not always true - what you are offering with regard to being flexible (not the pool table and stuff, but the time off etc etc) is no different to what I have working in a large business. If your candidates are coming from an enviroment like this (and with 27 days + bank holidays) maybe the flexibility doesn't sound that great? Just a thought....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Chris, don't mention holidays until they start the new job:p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted March 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Another point (probably not relevant but I am a bit lost on this thread now!) - MrMe you have stated that large 'corporates' are inflexible and you can't have time for personal reasons, etc - I think that is not always true - what you are offering with regard to being flexible (not the pool table and stuff, but the time off etc etc) is no different to what I have working in a large business. If your candidates are coming from an enviroment like this (and with 27 days + bank holidays) maybe the flexibility doesn't sound that great?Just a thought....... Forget holidays. Let's just forget I even mentioned it. I'll say one last time...2 applicants out of 60+ have asked about the holiday entitlement and if 25 could be matched. That's it. Just two. For the sake of argument let's pretend it's 50 days holiday and everything else is the same. There. *no offence meant to you specifically chas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy2shots Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Out of interest did the job advert detail holiday entitlement? I think that's Twinsparks point and if it did it could have put off more suitable candidates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted March 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Yes it did. However, I can't stress enough I think a lot is being made of this when the reality is we'd get very few applications from very large organisations because they're not the nromal source of staff in this sector. But again, forget holidays - if 20 days + 8 (the national average) is an issue to them then that's fine, they can stay with their current employers. Plus, again, in my experience the staff for this type of role from large organisations simply couldn't hack it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted March 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 p.s. I should also point out it's 29 days in 2012. 20 days plus 9 statutory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinspark Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Again, I think you're a little confused - you're giving statutory minimum, not 'national average'. And that is why many candidates will overlook the role - statutory minimum and 'senior role' aren't often mentioned in the same advert! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now