Twinspark Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 I support United through thick and thin. I find it hard to support the choice of Moyes as I think he's mid table fodder at best. Current performance suggests I'm right. But time will tell. It's not, and I don't know how many times I need to say this, about 5 games. It's about 11 years of mediocre, safety-first, dull and uninspiring football. It's about 46 away games against top 4 opposition and yet to win a game. It's about his abject failure in Derby matches which he's brought with him. It about why the hell we chose someone with little or no history of success and why we think that will change. It's about taking current league champions and making them look rubbish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 I support United through thick and thin. I find it hard to support the choice of Moyes as I think he's mid table fodder at best. Current performance suggests I'm right. But time will tell. It's not, and I don't know how many times I need to say this, about 5 games. It's about 11 years of mediocre, safety-first, dull and uninspiring football. It's about 46 away games against top 4 opposition and yet to win a game. It's about his abject failure in Derby matches which he's brought with him. It about why the hell we chose someone with little or no history of success and why we think that will change. It's about taking current league champions and making them look rubbish. He had nothing to work with at Everton. In a decade his net spend was less than Wayne Rooney gets in half a season. You also seem to forget who recommended him. I'll take that. It is good enough for me, but maybe he's less well informed than you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinspark Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 (edited) That's not painting the full picture, is it? Our net spend since the Glazers came along is, I believe, still in profit. Or it was until this summer. The £25m wasted on sideshow bob may have changed that. With the crazy prices paid for top (especially British) talent these days, one or two lucky finds in the youth setup can put you in the black for years (which is pretty much what Rooney did for Moyes at Everton). We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I really hope your opinion is the right one... because me being right would be a disaster for the club. Edited September 23, 2013 by Twinspark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m4ttm4son Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Sometimes, supporting your club means moaning about what decisions are crap in order for better ones to be made in future. So far, Moyes hasn't done anything, but take bland Evertonian football to ManU. If he had made some signings that were trying to bed in, I'd have more understanding, but I don't think these players are more accomplished than fighting for top four status. Alex Ferguson was a miracle worker and this season will be a big come down. Moyes won't be out before January. This is a club that will give him time and that's the correct thing. He might come good next season, but unless there is any progress, he might be in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Sometimes, supporting your club means moaning about what decisions are crap in order for better ones to be made in future. So far, Moyes hasn't done anything, but take bland Evertonian football to ManU. If he had made some signings that were trying to bed in, I'd have more understanding, but I don't think these players are more accomplished than fighting for top four status. Alex Ferguson was a miracle worker and this season will be a big come down. Moyes won't be out before January. This is a club that will give him time and that's the correct thing. He might come good next season, but unless there is any progress, he might be in trouble. I'll say it again - we've easily had the toughest start to a season of any club with City, Chelsea and Liverpool played already. The manager doesn't make the signings. The Chief Executive does. Woodward made mistakes but we still have the squad that won the league 4 months ago. All too easily forgotten. Add that to the fact that we're always slow starters and there is nothing to worry about. Moyes should get a minimum of 3 years. If we win nothing in that time, I don't care. 10 months ago Spurs fans were raging. They wanted AVB sacked immediately. Go look at their forums. Now he's the best thing since sliced bread and they're all mega-excited. I'd rather not be such a fickle fan and understand that managers need time. Spurs are an embarrassment. Arsenal are even worse. Easily the most fickle and astonishingly double-standard set of fans on the planet. Wenger out, wenger out. Oh we've signed Ozil. Wenger is god, wenger is god. A faction of United fans will be proven to be the same. Twinspark, you'll be one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m4ttm4son Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 I've not said anything about the Utd fans, so don't bother with the "Wenger Out Brigade" slants, thanks. Every fan base has extremists. The media will always play them up. As I already said, your squad won the title because of Fergie. That's what the best managers can do. Moyes did that at Everton, but we will need to wait to see if he can step up and do the same with better players. I think giving him three years is fair But if he finishes 5th twice, would you still wait another season? Chelsea sacking AVB was retarded and Tottenham picking him up was brilliant. He will go down in history as one of their greatest managers in future IMO. Again, only the most ignorant fans wanted him out. Oh, and just because you don't think your team will win the league doesn't mean you're not supporting the club. Deluded fans that always think they're going to win are just as hilarious as the moaning ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Deluded fans that always think they're going to win are just as hilarious as the moaning ones Except United usually DO win the league. Not that I'd expect an Arsenal fan to understand winning... Time though. Managers need time - especially when following in the footsteps of the greatest in British football history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Deluded fans that always think they're going to win are just as hilarious as the moaning ones Whoa there. Shao_Khan and I aren't deluded. We *know* Newcastle are going to win the league this year. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinspark Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 How much time do you give someone? - if essentially the same side that won the title is outside the ECL places come the end of the season, will you still have the same tolerance? Time is all well and good if you're taking over an under-performing side. But if you've taken a side backwards, the timescales get much, much, shorter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 How much time do you give someone? - if essentially the same side that won the title is outside the ECL places come the end of the season, will you still have the same tolerance? Time is all well and good if you're taking over an under-performing side. But if you've taken a side backwards, the timescales get much, much, shorter. Yes, I would. But we won't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 It's not United's fault. It's not Moyes' fault. It's the Premiership's. They stiffed Man U with the run of fixtures at the start of the season. It's a conspiracy I tell you. Come on Mr Moyes! Surely you can do better than come up with the above! (this post may contain a little paraphrasing and some poetic licence!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m4ttm4son Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Except United usually DO win the league. Not that I'd expect an Arsenal fan to understand winning... Have you got a gold Premiership Trophy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon magnifique Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Disclaimer: This isn't aimed at anyone here, however if the cap fits... One of the internet's most enduring 'achievements', apart from the free availability of porn, is to provide a 24 hour platform for football fans to argue with each other and prove to the world how little most of them know or understand about the game. It also allows a lot of people to pretend to be fans of a team when in reality they're not. I think this internet influence, along with saturation media coverage, has helped create a generation of "fans" who have lost the notion of supporting their team, who are now customers expecting to be entertained. This generation are short termists who demand success now at all costs. They have no care for the long term success (or indeed survival) of the club, they only seek to have their immediate greed for entertainment sated (and it's only entertaining if you win, right?). This generation do not understand the pact that used to exist between fan and club - that a fan will go to games and support his team thoughout the game whatever his opinion of individual players or the manager, he will do his bit to become part of that 'twelfth man'. Only after the game will he express any disillusionment with a poor result. This generation have also lost any concept of the fundamental difference between hope and expectation - all be it a difference you might forgive United fans of the last couple of decades for not recognising. The pervading mood of fans now swings wildly from one result to the next, expectation growing exponentially to impossible heights with each positive step, which in turn brings demands for instant change after every defeat when that impossible expectation appears under threat. And one final twist of the knife. In today's responsiblity-free society, it's always someone else's fault - fans, however vociferous and wrong, will never accept the blame for dragging their club into the mire. It's no wonder the game's in a mess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tipex Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 (edited) Or, it could be argued that the clubs alienate the current generation of fans with ridiculous prices, constant strip changes etc, and the turning of what were clubs, into businesses that has led to the type of 'fans' you describe? Perhaps it isn't 'fans' at fault, but football as a whole. Edited September 23, 2013 by Tipex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon magnifique Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 That is also true. Many 'traditional' fans have been alienated, and not just at Premiership level. Although my rant here is about today's fans, the blame for the destruction of English football lies squarely with the FA, the Premiership and Sky. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 (edited) I belong to the group of fans who went to matches from a very early age until their late 20's - and then work and ambition took over. I went home, away, abroad and spent an amount of money I would cringe at if I added it up now. But it gave me more return than anything else I could think of. Tears of joy, sadness, anger, delight, surprise, disappointment, friends, enemies, you name it. Now, I'm little more than an MUTV subscriber and club member who pays every year for the pointless little card and bumph that goes in a drawer. Sometimes I'll buy a limited edition item as a silly investment shored up by my blinkered loyalty and guilt at not being able to get to the ground these days. I remember Docherty (briefly), Sexton, Atkinson and the early SAF days. So I remember never winning, or rarely. I recall the humiliation reaped on fans by Liverpool, Forest, Villa and the occassional Everton fan. Guess what? They were brilliant days. The banter, the joy of knowing you'd have your friends life on Monday but the dread that he'd get you the next weekend. It was superb. These days I see Twitter descend into anarchy if United ship a goal or 4. A man who has worked his arse off for 10 years at a club that should have gone down long ago is being ritually tortured and told he's not good enough - after 7.5 hours of football! Not a full normal working day! It beggars belief. The world has changed and so has the game. I think people underestimate the achievements of Ferguson. The chances of seeing another club dominate for 20 years are miniscule. Almost an impossibility. I don't care. If we're playing in the Northern League One against Bedlington Terriers in 9 years I'll still support the club. I have had more moments of delight from my club than most fans would get in 100 lifetimes. I will criticise Moyes if I think he has made a bad decision. But after 7.5 hours? It is a joke. An unsavoury and childish one at that. Edited September 23, 2013 by NewNiceMrMe 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinspark Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 I'm from the 70s / 80s / early 90s generation of fans. Didn't see as much of United as I'd have liked - but did spend an awful lot of time on the terraces at Stockport County and Droylsden - including going to the arse end of humanity on Tuesday nights, with the wind and sleet whipping across the ground. I hate what's happened to football - I hate what the Glazers and other foreign owners have done - I hate the whole EPL setup and long for a return to the late 80s / early 90s, which seems to be the golden era of football for me. And this is why I object to the label of 'glory hunter'... it seems I'm banging my head against a wall here - but I judge Moyes on 11 years of adequate competence, doing just enough to keep the board and fans happy down the road. I don't judge him on a handful of games. I just have a firm belief that Sir Alex got this one very, very wrong - just as he did with the likes of Quinton Fortune and Djemba Djemba (and Veron...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon magnifique Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 I guess I count myself as an old school fan. Although I have some allegiance to United - I remember being a United 'fan' as a 7 year old kid when every other kid in my part of MANCHESTER was a Liverpool fan - I've only ever been a true fan of Oldham Athletic. I stopped going to games a few years ago, so I don't class myself as a fan any more, merely a supporter from afar. Today I am a fan of football as a whole, if such a thing exists. I have 'leanings' toward several clubs, but there are a few who shall forever be despised, one in particular who play in white on the wrong side of the pennines. And Chelsea for being fakes. And City (obviously). It's a complex story the development and demise (if you see it that way) of football over recent years. Although on the surface the Premiership may be better and richer than ever before, that has been at an unforgiveable expense. The FA has been complicit in ripping the heart and soul out of the game as a whole, as anyone who sees football as much more than 20 Premiership teams will testify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon magnifique Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 the arse end of humanity on Tuesday nights, with the wind and sleet whipping across the ground. Yep, that's Droylsden. And Hyde. And Stalyvegas. God help the game when they die. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinspark Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Yep, that's Droylsden. And Hyde. And Stalyvegas. God help the game when they die. I've been to worse places for midweek away games - Barrow and Whitley Bay, for a start. Talk about bleak and depressing. Especially when the club coach (even in the early 90s) looked something like this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 And this is why I object to the label of 'glory hunter'... it seems I'm banging my head against a wall here - but I judge Moyes on 11 years of adequate competence, doing just enough to keep the board and fans happy down the road. I don't judge him on a handful of games. I just have a firm belief that Sir Alex got this one very, very wrong - just as he did with the likes of Quinton Fortune and Djemba Djemba (and Veron...) If you think Sir Alex got it wrong - at least wait a year or so and get behind his choice. Quinton Fortune is at United now. Doing his coaching badges. He returned a year ago. He was a decent squad player for whom we paid very little money, so I don't see him as a bad signing. Djemba Djemba was a poor signing. Veron played superbly in our Champions League campaigns and poorly in the Premier League. We didn't get value for money out of him but he remains one of the most talented footballers ever to have played at United. If you'd said Kleberson, Prunier or Taibi, I'd have been more inclined to agree.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy2shots Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 (edited) Amazed at all the panic from Man U fans. Anyone who thinks utd will finish lower than 3rd needs their head testing, They have had a tough start to the season (but no fix Moyes), and I still think they will finish first or second. People seem to have forgotten all about our loss to Cardiff a couple of weeks back. Fans will be fans and before the derby there were sections of City fans questioning Pellegrini. Of course those fans can no longer be found. On a negative Utd note, my opinion that players like Young, Cleverly, Wellbeck and possibly Smalling should be no where near the Utd starting XI has not been changed. Yes Utd have had past success with players coming up from the youth team but whatever the question is, Cleverly and Wellbeck are not the answer, for Utd or England. I don't think you can blame the manager for what happened on Sunday. City outplayed Utd which they have done in most of the games in the last 3 years. City have the edge in this fixture but Utd are more consistent over the course of the season. The player need to be blamed for what happened on Sunday. They obviously didn't do what the manager asked. Just one example from a few I picked up was in the midfield. Utd started with 2 defensive/holding midfielder's playing in front of the 2 centre backs. This set up, although negative in attack should keep things watertight. There should be zero space in "The Hole", yet Aguero and Nasri had an absolute field day dropping off into space and playing in between the lines. So the obvious blame is with Carrick and Side Show Bob then. No, not quite. My finger would be pointed at Rio and Vidic. They have to be brave and go with Aguero all the way. Think Kompany on Rooney. Vincent has the confidence in his ability to follow Rooney and win the ball. If he doesn't win it, he backs himself to get back into position before Rooney can cause a problem. Vidic and Rio no longer have the physical tools to do this. Vidic never had and Rio's powers have past with time. When fit my answer would be to play Jones and one of the older CB's in the big games. Edited September 24, 2013 by billy2shots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Posted September 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 Have you been playing Football Manager on the Xbox? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m4ttm4son Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 Neither Vidic nor Rio have any pace zonalmarking.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy2shots Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 Have you been playing Football Manager on the Xbox? No but on Saturday my team got totally stuffed with me playing centre back and failing in the same area that I spoke of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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