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RBR F1 Future?


Andy_Bangle
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What's the future for RBR?

 

Red Bull has talked about pulling out of F1.

Red Bull has ended their Renault contract.

Mercedes has said it won't provide engines to Red Bull like Bernie wants.

Renault confirmed that the manufacturer will now either complete the purchase of Lotus or exit F1.

Red Bull also talked to Audi about supplying engines however, Audi is not that interested due to cost.

 

Red Bull Ferrari - according to James Allen 

 

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There is obviously far too much bad blood in that relationship now, and I'm not sure the Mclaren relationship with Honda is that much better at the moment. 

 

Reports are that Ron Dennis has requested they change the head of the motorsports F1 programme for someone else. Honda want it to be a learning exercise for employees but Mclaren when they to get help in from rivals which Honda doesn't want to do. 

 

Plus I think they they have over promised to Mclaren and consistently under delivered. 

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The McLaren Honda relationship is strained to say the least.  McLaren aren't helping though by making claims that they have the second best chassis on the grid when it's fairly obvious that isn't the case.  There's failings on both sides but outwardly at least, McLaren don't seem to acknowledge that.

 

Red Bull would need their head examining to go with Honda so I think it'll have to be Ferrari.

 

The options I see are Red Bull go for Ferrari power units or they exit F1.

Edited by burble
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It is indeed a shame.  Not only because it's not good to see a great team performing badly but also for the sport as a whole as there's next to no competition for the top spots.

 

I can understand why Mercedes don't want to do that deal but I think it'd be great for the sport if it went ahead.

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Yeah it would but I guess its their choice. 

 

Personally I think they need to stop changing the regulations all the time and leave them for 3/4 seasons. Constantly changing the regulations always favours the top teams with the money. When they are stabilised for a while the teams at the back can copy and catch up the principles the top teams have applied. 

 

They want to cut costs but at the moment they seem to be doing anything but and the bills the teams are having to pay are going up and not down its madness. 

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I can understand why Mercedes don't want to do that deal but I think it'd be great for the sport if it went ahead.

 

Mercedes sources indicated that it considered the situation a lose-lose, as if Red Bull beat the works team it would make no sense, while if it didn’t, it would likely criticise its engine partner, as it has consistently over the last few years with Renault. In other words, RBR whines too much.
 
I wonder how Ferrari will react when a customer team starts complaining about them. 
"Oh.. Your engine randomly blew up? Looks good from our end, no warnings or anything..." 
 
With regards to VW/Audi/Porker engines, it's not a good environment for any manufacturer to enter F1 right now. The current engines are well developed, any new manufacturer faces a huge uphill battle like Honda, and development is planned to be more and more restrictive as we approach a total freeze by the end of 2020. :ffs:
 
If the FIA want to attract any new manufacturers they will need to open development or plan a new engine rule cycle. 
 
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This goes well beyond F1 as I understand it.  They don't get on in DTM and Red Bull have upset Mercedes in that.

 

Why on earth would you provide your engine to your biggest competitor?  It makes no sense at all.  Mercedes aren't in the sport for goodwill and making it competitive.  They're in it to win.

 

Years of RBR domination are at an end and now you're asked to make them quick again?  It's a joke and not one anyone could have realistically expected to happen.

 

RB are in this for marketing and if they can find a better opportunity at lesser cost, they will.  I think that is what'll happen too.  I see them leaving.

Edited by NewNiceMrMe
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If Red Bull went Mercedes you might as well call it a one make series. Even if they go Ferrari and Renault pull out we'll be left with two dominant engines and McLaren either relying on Honda gaining huge ground in development or jumping ship.

 

As for McLaren, the evidence on track suggests most of the performance deficit is in straight line grunt so does lie with the power unit - and mainly the hybrid element. However I'd lay the blame for the poor relationship squarely at McLaren's door.

 

I love Spa and enjoyed the F1 weekend, but was left with one overriding impression. When the GP2 cars are louder and more spectacular - all be it quite a bit slower - you can't help but feel F1 has lost its way. The cars do sound better than on tv, but not much. Their stopping, cornering and acceleration out of turns is bewildering, but they don't sing like the old cars did, they don't scream. A huge element of what used to be an all senses physical assault is no longer there. Even the super cup 911s were louder. I'd quite like to do Monaco one day, even though I think it's a nonsense, but that aside I think that's it for F1 trips. Historics and endurance from now on for me.

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It'll be an underpowered Ferrari unit and RBR will beat Ferrari through better design and packaging.

 

Do you think, I'm not sure they have found big improvements to replicate what they learnt with the blown diffuser to be honest.

 

Its a good car but I don't see it as great. F1 has moved into an engine formula as everyone said it would. Its great to see that we are doing things more efficiently and showing that motorsport isn't all about power and energy use but the initial development to create this engines is massive. 

 

 

I was lucky enough to have a presentation and conversation with the founder of Ilmor engineering who made and badged the Mercedes units initially. They were then bought out by Mercedes but make no mistake all the engineering still takes place in the UK. It was one of the best most inspirational talks I've ever had he was captivating in the way he explained what they did and the motorsport stories. However he died less than a year after the talk (and this is topical) when he crashed one of his historic planes having returned from flying some parts to one of the teams I believe. Horrible shame but the company lives on albeit under a different name but still successful. 

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I love Spa and enjoyed the F1 weekend, but was left with one overriding impression. When the GP2 cars are louder and more spectacular - all be it quite a bit slower - you can't help but feel F1 has lost its way. The cars do sound better than on tv, but not much. Their stopping, cornering and acceleration out of turns is bewildering, but they don't sing like the old cars did, they don't scream. A huge element of what used to be an all senses physical assault is no longer there. Even the super cup 911s were louder. I'd quite like to do Monaco one day, even though I think it's a nonsense, but that aside I think that's it for F1 trips. Historics and endurance from now on for me.

This, what is the point of having the pinnacle of motorsport to be quiet it just doesn't make sense(I know why it is but that isn't the point), maybe they need to move to twin exhausts maybe.

 

I guess its like watching the diesels in BTCC its like a vacuum cleaner going past nothing like the petrol cars and they are the ones that add to the experience.

 

Bernie was right all along but lets face it I can't see them going back anytime soon unfortunately. 

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F1 is now an engine formula and not a chassis formula as it was for years in the n/a era. As such even a RBR designed by Adrian would struggle to beat a fully integrated works effort if it has a customer engine. The power trains and more importantly, the way they are used is critical.

I know it's not the same world any more. But at the end of 1967, Lotus had an exclusivity agreement on the DFV. Colin Chapman quickly realised that if he didn't forgo this exclusivity F1 would be damaged. Shame Mercedes don't have the balls to do this.

Edited by jimdiesel
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I know it's not the same world any more. But at the end of 1967, Lotus had an exclusivity agreement on the DFV. Colin Chapman quickly realised that if he didn't forgo this exclusivity F1 would be damaged. Shame Mercedes don't have the balls to do this.

 

They were all customer engines though - that's the difference.  Mercedes run a team, although they also provide customer engines to Williams, who are consistently snapping at their heels.  The leader board will be plastered in the brand "Mercedes" at the end of the season - all good stuff for their marketing.

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They're not daft though - why give a very competitive team with seemingly unlimited funds and massive sway in the way F1 is run your engine?  A bit chicken and egg, I know, but I just don't see it happening.

 

I think Ferrari are arrogant enough to supply RBR and still claim victory if RBR win...

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Paul Morgan was a very clever guy CarMad. His partner Mario Illien is now helping Renault as a consultant.

Indeed a great guy and Ilmor were great to work with they pushed what they wanted to do to the absolute limit but we helped them make new parts and modifications in hours that took them days before it was a real step change. 

 

He told a great story about a new engine they created they needed to test and they didn't want Andretti I think it was to hear what they were doing and come and have a look so they watch for when he left the house and then took the car out on track. Can't remember the specifics I think it was Indianapolis. 

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Yes it was the special pushrod indy 500 engine they built for the 94 race.

Pushrod engines had a higher boost limit and capacity limit (3.4 over 2.65 if my memory is correct) as they tended to be production based, like the Buick. Ilmor bent the rules and built a bespoke pushrod engine for Penske and they dominated.

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