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acarneiro

Sometimes VW can be utter rubbish

38 posts in this topic

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the GTI with DSG is no quicker per se than the manual.

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For what it's worth, the above is merely opinion. So far, I've only seen one magazine whose tests suggested the DSG wasn't faster than the manual. Other mags have conducted their own performance testing and found the DSG to be faster.

If you mean that it doesn't feel any faster, then that's a different matter. I didn't feel a great performance difference between the DSG and manual, but nobody is claiming there is one. Most figures I've seen have suggested it's only 0.3 to 0.7 of a second quicker to 60, so most of us are unlikely to notice. But the flexibility of the DSG was easily worth the extra money for my driving circumstances.

Gareth seems to want to denigrate the DSG gearbox to justify his own options selection. Fine; but the figures (independently tested) don't back up his view. If there are test results that do back it up, then let's see them. We can all be re-educated. Don't forget to send a copy to VW, too. It's unlikely that many purchasers will have gone for DSG in order to marginally beat a manual away from the lights, so I doubt anyone really cares.

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[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

the GTI with DSG is no quicker per se than the manual.

[/ QUOTE ]

For what it's worth, the above is merely opinion. So far, I've only seen one magazine whose tests suggested the DSG wasn't faster than the manual. Other mags have conducted their own performance testing and found the DSG to be faster.

If you mean that it doesn't feel any faster, then that's a different matter. I didn't feel a great performance difference between the DSG and manual, but nobody is claiming there is one. Most figures I've seen have suggested it's only 0.3 to 0.7 of a second quicker to 60, so most of us are unlikely to notice. But the flexibility of the DSG was easily worth the extra money for my driving circumstances.

Gareth seems to want to denigrate the DSG gearbox to justify his own options selection. Fine; but the figures (independently tested) don't back up his view. If there are test results that do back it up, then let's see them. We can all be re-educated. Don't forget to send a copy to VW, too. It's unlikely that many purchasers will have gone for DSG in order to marginally beat a manual away from the lights, so I doubt anyone really cares.

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So do you always believe the car mags about everything they say..??

When you suggest that I am merely offering a biased "opionion" to "justify" my own selection you are talking rubbish I'm afraid smashfreakB.gif

When test driving the Mk5 GTI I drove both cars back to back over the same roads for same amount of time, 2-3 hours in each. I then did exactly the same exercise back to back with the 2 GTI's (one manual and the other DSG) with the VW Sales Guy (who is a handy track day driver, not some jumped up 'Johnny White Socks' like most VW sales guys... znaika.gif) and we both agreed over the same roads/time that the manual was subjectively and objectively brisker than the DSG. We also both enjoyed the manual a lot more. It was not significant but it was measurable-although I am not able to print any figures to illustrate our findings...but then no car magazine has done that either.

I'm not seeking to rubbish the DSG system but merely to encourage people to;

a) try it themselves before spending £2k on it

b) be objective and not just take what the motoring press re-print from the PR releaes as gospel...which in the case of certain mags, is exactly what they do... SLEEP5.GIF

As I've already said if the DSG suits your own usuage then fine go ahead and get it, but if you're not sure then it's worth trying it out as I've already suggested 169144-ok.gif

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I agree with Gareth. I've noticed with the A3 drivers that once the novelty of the DSG wears off, it is just another auto. Albeit a very good one, but still an auto. So if you aren't the sort of person that would have bought an Auto in the first place, don't buy DSG.

IMO I think the manual GTI's will make for better resale, and one more thing. What happens when you have to replace the clutch x 2 on a DSG car....ouch!

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Well, an unscientific analysis looking at the magazine figures (admittedly using different cars in different conditions) shows the following:

DSG:

0-60mph:

6.3s (Volkswagen Driver 03/05)

6.53s (Top Gear 03/05)

6.8s (Auto Express 26/01/05)

6.54s AVERAGE

30-50mph (3rd gear):

2.3s (Volkswagen Driver 03/05)

N/A (Top Gear 03/05)

3.6s (Auto Express 26/01/05)

2.95s AVERAGE

MANUAL

0-60mph:

6.7s (Test Drive 02/05)

6.7s (Evo 03/05)

6.7s (Auto Express 03/11/04)

6.7s AVERAGE

30-50mph (3rd gear):

2.9s (Test Drive 02/05)

3.2s (Evo 03/05)

3.0s (Auto Express 03/11/04)

3.03s AVERAGE

So, on average the DSG is quicker for these stats (chosen because they were the two most commonly available). However, what is noticeable is that the manual produces far more consistent results. You would have thought it would be the othe way around! Any ideas why? Perhaps the DSG takes time to bed in?

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Fact 1 the DSG is quicker to change gears than the Manual

Fact 2 both DSG and manual have same engine therefore performance wise are same (OK DSB weighs slightly more)

Therefore DSG is quicker because the gear changes to get to speed are quicker. Therefore endeth the discussion on which is quicker. Point is it really doesn't matter as driver and driving style count for a hell of alot more.

However have to agree with Gareth a little on his road test. If you've never driven an auto let alone DSG before you tend to drive is slower. Have to admit first time in GF's car was very warry, especially starting and stopping (plus she was sitting next to me and any mild acceleration got me a look). After a day though I was used to the new way of driving and was up to speed.

One thing I loved was when overtaking, you can have a look to see if the coast is clear and instead of having to reach over and waste time changing gear you hit the paddle and go.

One hate is that you tend to feel the car is driving itself a little. You either need to be on the gas or on the brake. There's nothing inbetween which you have with a manual.

LeMan clutches have an extrememly long life, what tends to break them is poor driving styles and heavy use. An auto box reduces this with consistant gear changes and takes the dirve misuse factor out.

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[ QUOTE ]

LeMan clutches have an extrememly long life, what tends to break them is poor driving styles and heavy use. An auto box reduces this with consistant gear changes and takes the dirve misuse factor out.

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I know they have a long life, but they will go eventually, some sooner than others. My question was what happens when they do go. Will you have to replace 2 clutches? shocked.gif

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...and instead of having to reach over and waste time changing gear you hit the paddle and go.

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changing gear with a proper stick is all part of the fun. ECLIPSe.gif

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[ QUOTE ]

So do you always believe the car mags about everything they say..??

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Can you explain why car mags would lie about performance figures that they've extracted by using pretty expensive, precise and well tested hardware and software?

"When you suggest that I am merely offering a biased "opionion" to "justify" my own selection you are talking rubbish I'm afraid"

OK, but you're not providing anything to back this up. Agreeing with a salesman that a car is slower isn't "objective" in any way. It's two people agreeing that they share an opinion. This is subjectivity, not objectivity. Objectivity is strapping the same machinery to two cars and running the same controlled tests on them.

"It was not significant but it was measurable-although I am not able to print any figures to illustrate our findings...but then no car magazine has done that either."

But they have, you see? They've printed performance figures. All produced independently of each other, but with similarly precise measurement techniques.

"I'm not seeking to rubbish the DSG system but merely to encourage people to;

a) try it themselves before spending £2k on it

b) be objective and not just take what the motoring press re-print from the PR releaes as gospel...which in the case of certain mags, is exactly what they do..."

I agree that people should try the cars out, rather than believing PR releases. But when magazines, newspapers, websites or TV programmes run their own independent performance tests, I'm going to assume they're better informed than you or me. I know that many reviews are written during/after all-expenses-paid junkets, and some journos don't want to upset the manufacturers, but I don't think they'd fiddle the figures. I've been driving both an automatic and a manual car for the last 18 months, so I suppose I'm used to driving an auto. The DSG just seems to be an auto with faster gearchanges and the option to pick your gears when flying along winding roads. I'm sure it'll take a little while to get the most out of it, but I'm quite looking forward to that. Obviously, I'm sure you'd get as much enjoyment from a manual, but the auto will make the Bristol traffic far more tolerable. Well, a little.

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ok then..

1. I think that you will find that the majority of UK car mags have not tested the GTI with "expensive, precise and well tested software" Autocar and Evo have with the manual car but the other car mags have just referred to the figures supplied by VW and not run their own as you suggest-this is especially true of the DSG car. Also I am not aware of any UK car mag that has tested the DSG and manual car back to back...are you?

2. "Agreeing with a salesman" - if you really think I'm going to duped into agreeing with someone who has a vested interest in agreeing with me (which i think is your point here) then you really don't know me at all (which of course you don't!) The salesperson in question is a very decent driver as well as being a true enthusiast-plus he knew that whatever he thought of either car it would have little real influence on the buying process for me. This is because I am pretty confident in my own assessment of what is good/bad about a car - yes I realise that's big headed but it's borne of plenty of experience of owning/driving far more exotic performance cars than the Mk 5 GTI (which is still a hoot of course bike.thumb.gif) Again can you show me which UK car mag has done the back to back test you seem to claim has happend...??

And if we're going split infinities (objective v subjective) then to "assume they're better informed than us.." makes an interesting view point... SLEEP5.GIF

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IMO, DSG is a great innovation in automatic driving but no substitute for a stick. I never test drove a DSG when i bought my A3 3.2, as i'm the sort of geeza that gets caught up in the hype.

Been there done that and always go back to manual for pure drivin' spirit.. if it aint broke...

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I have to say I am a fan of having a manual, but the more clogged up the roads get the more DSG makes scense to me.

It just gives you about the best of both worlds thats possible and for that reason alone it will start to become the gearbox of choice for many in the future.

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[ QUOTE ]

DSG: 6.54s

Man: 6.7s

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Fact 1 the DSG is quicker to change gears than the Manual

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With Gareth here and I have yet to even step in a Mk5 GTi. That equates £1825 for 0.15 seconds. The technology might be amazing but where is the joy? You buy a Golf GTi for the overall package. I'd love one! Makes far more sense with just a few options - 18s and Alcantara for example. If you want raw speed, lightning reflexes and want to pretend you are in a race car, you are clearly looking at the wrong vehicle. Goes without saying that your money will get you far far faster machinery both new and second hand.

Ian C

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As a long term auto convert, I think the point of the DSG is that, at last, an auto is now as quick (whether it's infinitessimally quicker or not is irrelevant to me)as a manual. The paddle change is just the icing on the cake. £1800 doesn't seem that bad to me, I've paid more for an autobox before.

By the way, don't think there's an option for Alcantara or I might have gone for that, just couldn't face driving round on seats covered by my Mum's old tea towel so had to go for leather

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[ QUOTE ]

just couldn't face driving round on seats covered by my Mum's old tea towel so had to go for leather

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there's a lot of soul in that tea towel smlove2.gif

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