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Okay : is THIS reasonable?


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We took our newly-bought-with-a-new-loan second-hand Audi 80 Avant into a highly-regarded Audi specialists in Brixton (South London) on Tuesday, to have it checked and generally put "right" after a strange 'whine' started to come from the steering column.

There was a lot of work needed doing, and it was going to cost a lot of money. That's fine : we love the car, as do our two little girls.

Driving it back to the garage after a quick test that the steering was now working properly and that the brakes were now better, the garage's boss was hit by another (stolen) car.

Our car is said to be "drivable", but the garage is saying that unless their insurance company deems it economic, we won't be seeing our repaired and lovely Audi back from them, but will be getting a cheque for the write-off value (two-thirds the actual value) of the car, and a hire car for three weeks that they'll pay for to give us some time to find a replacement car of whatever sort we can with the cashed cheque.

I don't think this is "right" -- quite aside from the fact that my wife is eight-and-a-half months pregnant and we can't get our two little girls plus her around without a decent-sized car -- but I want to know if anyone knows what's "reasonable" in these circumstances : what the garage SHOULD be offering, and what it's duty-bound to do.

Thanks : any help, sympathy -- jokes -- appreciated...

--

John

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sorry to hear that buddy! blush.gif

I wouldnt know what is expected of them, but, unfortunately, what they have said, sounds about right! they are covered by insurance and it would be the same as if you were driving, if the car is deemed unrepairable etc, an insurance pay out is, I believe the only answer. (but I am no expert!)

Maybe you could call an audi dealer elsewere in the country, speak to someone and seek their views, dont give too much away but see what they think of the situation. try speaking to someone who is recommended, where in the country are you?

and make sure they supply a "suitable relacement!" 169144-ok.gif

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Thanks for the speedy response-time : twelve minutes from the 999 call and it's one in the morning!...

Okay... not anything LIKE what I wanted to hear, but if I was a garage-owner, indeed, that'd certainly be my opening argument...

Except that they're NOT saying the car is irreparable. It's the front wing, apparently : it "got clipped".

(And they're not talking about a "replacement" either : they're just talking about a hire car for three weeks while we pick up the pieces...)

It doesn't seem "reasonable" under the sense of 'Duty of Care', that's all.

I'll follow-up your suggestion of ringing other places just to see what they might say though, thanks.

Okay. Enough whingeing. Thanks again.

--

John

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Firstly Welcome to Tyresmoke, shame it is in such a situation.

Anyway, I would think that you should get the value of the car, not the "right-off" value. The RO value IIRC is what the car is worth after the crash (I.e. scrap plus sale of the good bits). What the garage owner might be getting confuesed about is the "cost to repair" vs value of the car. Generally, if the cost of the repair is gerater than 1/2 the value of the car, it will be written off. If you can find the time, goet a copy of some car mags and find out what these cars are for sale at at the moment, this will give you some bargaining power over the decision to write the car off or not.

But I feel you are in a good bargaining position because :

1,They were driving it so it is their insurance who will be paying out initially and then claiming it back form the "insurance pool for un-insured drivers" (which I cannot remember the name of at the moment).

2,As your wife is 8 1/2 months pregnant a 3 week hire is not really acceptable, you can argue that when are you going to find time to <ul type="square"> [*]Find a new car [*]Get the selling garage to prep it [*]sort out insurance [*]etc

while at any moment the wife might be about to pop.

3, Their insurance may be after the 3rd party anyway so the fact that he or she was uninsured is basically not your problem.

4, You have some say about what car they give you as a hire as it needs to be a suitable replacement for the 80. When some idiot went into the back of me, I was offered a 3 door Corsa as a hire while they got it repaired but rejected it as I would not be able to get 2 kids plus kit in it and eventually they gave me a vectra.

5, It would also be worth talking to the manager and asking him to reduce his labour rates for this job as you really don't want this car written off - assuming it is sensible for the car to be repaired - anything to sway the "write-off"/"don't write off" calculation in your favour.

The person we really need to comment on this is Insurance_Jon.

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Firstly you do not have to accept the value given by the garages insurance. They have given you the value because all motor trade policies give "trade value" payouts not market value. I would personally contact a solicitor, or your legal expenses cover on your car policy or household, you may have to get the difference from the garage. The garage have a duty of care to you whether it is covered by insurance or not. The first step would be to get an independant inspection/valuation by an independant source, and use this as an arguing point with the insurer/garage.

Another tip is to get the auto trader and cut out/print out any adds for you vehicle type that would support this argument.

hope this helps

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Okay, time for an update.

Went to the garage today to SEE her... which was not exactly a source of joy... and to talk to the actual owner (who had been driving her when the nicked Ka smacked into her) rather than the garage manager -- and rather than over the 'phone.

And interestingly his is a different attitude : he wants to repair the car, for two reasons. Firstly, if he doesn't, he's out of pocket on the work we booked the car in for. Secondly, he was driving it and feels therefore responsible(as you would). And he also likes old Audis and thinks ours is a good one that he wants us to bring back to him whenever it needs anything else doing. (Four reasons then, but very much in many ways the best ones : they're about how HE feels about it and they're about HIS best business interests).

But of course, at the moment he's looking to his insurance company to pay for what the 'rebuild' work will cost him in parts and in labour. If they won't pay out, then he's trying to think up 'Plan B' -- and actually, contrary to the impression we were given by the garage manager, they haven't yet got back to say whether they will pay out and actually HAVEN'T said anything about just offering the 'write-off' value, so I don't know where the manager is coming from on that one, but he's not doing his business any favours.

All the same, the garage-owner wasn't talking about the extended implications of what insurance jon's talking about (I think) under his "duty of care" : he isn't talking about repairing the car WHATEVER the insurance company say (which in my utterly unbiased and objective thinking would be properly the "right" thing to do : it's what I'd do if it were me and I was a garage-owner who fixed Audis and had anything like that kind of a reputation for good -- nay : brilliant -- work...)

Oh and the Hire Car is initially for two weeks, but renewable if the car's being repaired for as long as that takes, or for as things stand at present up to three if the insurance company is not paying for what it takes to fix the car but offering us reasonable market value for the car instead -- assuming we would take that : does anybody know of a steel-grey Audi 80 2.6 V6 Avant in impeccable mechanical condition and with a full service history and only 100,000 miles on the clock going for a basic "market value" of (from 'Auto Trader') roughly £2,250.00? No? Thought not...

That's also roughly what he reckons the 'topside' cost of the repair would be, funnily enough. So in terms of the sums, surely from their point of view...

Today though, then (compared with yesterday) the worst thing is the hire car : it's a Focus. That's (to me) an Escort, isn't it?...

Hmmm : not quite the equivalent of a V6 Audi 80 estate then, really...

Let's just hope that it DOES get us to the hospital in time, else...

Valeting service, a good one, anybody know of?..

Sorry... No indeed. Awful idea. Just doesn't bear thinking about... No...

Anyway, I'll keep you posted -- on BOTH baby and car fronts, if you like... -- and thanks thus far : it makes a difference if you're me when even though you might well not at least you THINK you know what you are on about, dealing with stuff like this.

Thanks.

--

John

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You can reject the Focus if it is not big enough or will not allow you to do what you need to do. When my car got repaired I nearly went to town (thanks to some advice from Jon) and insisted on a car with a tow bar (for the boat). I could almost see the guy's face on then end of the line cringe and him think "this could get expensive" - how many hire cars do you know with a tow bar yelrotflmao.gif

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The Focus will "do" for our day-to-day ; it just won't be quite such a calming pleasure to ferry the girls across London and likely won't seemingly just 'drift' away ahead as if time had around us briefly slowed from the white vans careening round Vauxhall and indicate by no more than sheer force of personality and 'presence' on Embankment that, as it so happens, actually that car-length so-called 'gap' you're creeping forward into as the traffic slows down to a stuttered crawl because we're down to one lane here now, Mr. Jag-driver, was mine already -- ah you noticed? How kind...

But that's going to be okay over the next few weeks -- it's not as if we haven't got much else to have to think about...

It's just... Well... Finding it in car parks is not going to be that easy : I just still can't quite remember what a Focus looks like...

Still, at least inside it's got nice comfy seats and in the back the girls can eat their 'croissants' with utter impunity (as far as I'm concerned) so if they're happy... Well we'll be okay.

Let's see for now what next week brings.

Thanks all, and have a good weekend.

--

John

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John,

Assuming you still have the invoice from when you bought your car, insist that they repay this amount in full. As you've just bought the car for this amount, and any insurance is supposed to work on the principal of indemnifying you, i.e. putting you back in exactly the same position you where in prior to the accident, this is reasonable, if you had to pay over the odds for the car because it's mint, they owe you this amount, not the "average hack" value. If the Garages insurers won't pay out more than trade cost, make sure the garage knows that you will fully expect either the car to be repaired properly (irrelevent of who ends up paying!) or the full value of what you paid for it will be given to you. Don't be too nice just because the garage owner is friendly or helpfull either, make him aware in no uncertain terms that you will get one of these outcomes, and you'll engage a solicitor if needed, the costs of which they will then incur too when you win! If you take this line and don't let them think your a pushover you will get what you want.

Paul

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  • 2 weeks later...

Paul (and everyone)

Thanks for that : that's pretty much my position, and the one I've been losing sleep over trying to get the garage-manager to at least LISTEN to. The sticking point is that he's insisting we paid "over the odds" for the car given the work they had just had to do to it prior to the accident, and that their Insurance Company's valuation of £1500.00 would be what we'd have to put up with -- which I don't (having had a succession of concurring advice on this forum) accept as quite the position they can legally assume -- except that this week's Auto Trader prices are significantly lower than they looked two weeks ago for these cars. But until we know we have to get another one, that's kind of academic, really.

Having though just "had words" with the manager -- he "doesn't appreciate my tone", though personally I don't really think his appreciation of my "tone" is particularly let's say "vital" if they keep saying they're going to ring "in the morning" and then don't, day after day -- having just, as I said, had angry words (actually from him more than from me) I've since had kind brogued words from the owner...

...and they're waiting for "written confirmation" of a "sort of verbal agreement" from their insurance company that they can go ahead and undertake a "contract repair" on the car so that it isn't written off when it is, in fact, repairable -- and when they feel (maybe the owner, at least...) that 'repair it' is precisely what they simply "ought" to find a way to do...

So in a sense, there's still no news.

Except that Patricia gave birth to a baby boy last night at 22h17 in St Thomas's -- and at the sort of speed that would inspire even you Cannonball Runners with awe : I think she's astounding. And him? He's good : 8lb 9oz, 52.5cm toe to crown, and strong -- so, taller and bigger than me in what will seem like no time at all (I come from a line of Yorkshire 'harriers' : we're built for speed and manoeuvrability against the driving wind and rain and leaping over dry-stone walls and keeping up with our pet terriers...).

So, well... we're going to need an even BIGGER car...

I'll keep you all updated.

Thanks all

--

John

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  • 4 months later...

A belated update for everybody who took the time to find things out and advise on what best to do : Jack is now a 5 month-old very strong little boy, built somewhat like the german car that the garage finally got their insurance company to do a "contract repair" claim against -- so the garage shouldered the labour costs and the insurance company paid for parts to a pre-agreed value, and we got our car back with a whole new front end (and nice clear indicator lenses as well...)

So it wasn't written off -- and to be fair to a brilliant South London Audi garage, most of my "fears" were communication problems : they were trying to get the insurance company to "make it right" by what THEY (the garage) felt their responsibilities to be : they were just not maybe "up" to conveying all that to the stressed-out soon-to-be father-for-the-third-time who had no car...

Since then... The exhaust went (finally both cats, one of which was already rattling like a pan-lid on a cartoon pan of vegetables : we had a total loss of "pull" on the motorway back from Surrey at eleven p.m. Lovely.) So we've just had to have the cats replaced -- but the car's engine now runs quiet, powerful, quick-thinking, and smooth. The car itself of course is a decade-old Audi : so it creaks and warbles like doves in a pigeon-loft from time to time but that's not going to worry me too much just yet...

Otherwise then, the girls, Trish, the boy, and the car are all of them doing fine : all going smooth as butter.

Thanks to everybody.

--

John

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My mate had an old Vauxhall which got shunted and written off (although it was still driveable).

What he did, was got the cheque for the write of value, and negotiated with the insurer to actually keep the car.

It was then his choice to either drive the car (with dented boot) or get it fixed himself. (incidently he sold it anyway).

So it maybe that you can get to keep the car, get the cash, and get it fixed for a bargain price and still come away smiling. Maybe worth a look!

<Edit> Oops... pointless reply me thinks... well done

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  • 1 month later...

Update -- and it's NOT good...

After getting the cats fixed we then got new tyres all round and the tracking done so that it would be properly up to 'par' for the new year. And it was great. Smooth, clean, easy : lovely car.

28th December, Granny having just gone home, I took the family out for some roller-blading in the park to cheer the girls up.

I stopped briefly before parking because the roadway was blocked by the three park-maintenance vehicles : a drop-side truck, a pick-up truck, and a Dog-dirt Collection Cart (called "FIDO"). They all jumped into their cabs to let us past -- and the "FIDO" cart promptly reversed sixty yards at high speed straight into our front bumper.

The repairs will cost £1,600.00 minimum. The insurance assessor values the car at £1,365.00. Inevitably, then, they're writing it off. If we WANT of course.., we can have the 'right of salvage' and get back a little less money and then spend some of that on getting it back onto the road and through an MOT (it needs a new nearside headlight cluster, at an absolute minimum, assuming we can live with a bent radiator grille, a slightly-buckled bonnet, and a bumper that's cracked right through in the middle...).

So, with loans outstanding for three years still to cover the £4,000.00 we've spent getting the car up to par we're looking at watching it all disappear in a puff of smoke, leaving us carless and holding a £1,300.00 cheque.

We weren't even moving.

It's just not FAIR, really...

...and then when I opened the bonnet to check the rad was okay and see what damage there might be behind the bumper, the park-maintenance crew started coo-ing over the engine-bay : "Ooh look : it's a big old V6 -- I bet that's lovely to drive...". Yeah THANKS : it was. Lovely.

B*stards...

Sorry...

Happy New Year then, I guess...

I'll let you know where we end up this time -- though I don't think it's going to resolve quite so well as the last time, really : Trish isn't pregnant this time around...

--

John

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We're taking it back as "salvage", looking to get it back on the road with parts from breakers yards : it just needs an MOT to get back on the insurer's books, and apparently the only thing it'd fail one on, is that the nearside headlamp unit isn't now sited right (of course, these are the same somewhat expensive headlamp units as those on the S2 and on the Quattro models, and NOT the standard B4 Audi 80 headlamp units that you can pick up for a fiver on eBay, but that's driving a torquey V6 for you...).

Our garage, who've worked to get it back up to par for us over the last eight months -- and to whose manager I hereby publicly apologise for some of the things I've said about him ealier in this thread -- our specialist garage has said "just bring it in : we'll see what we can do for you"...

But tell me more anyway about how there's "more to it" : I'm (understandably) VERY interested, in that it seems absurd that an insurance company can write your car off for a dented bonnet, 'popped' headlamp fixings, and a crack in the bumper -- particularly in that you seem then to have essentially NO comeback from that. Tell me more.

Thanks

--

John

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You must have seen (or heard) the adverts on telly and radio saying "Had a car accident which wasn't your fault?".

Who does the insurance assessor work for? Their insurance company. And what is their primary interest in this? Paying out as little as possible to get the claim settled. If they can get away with £1600 to settle, why should they offer any more? Get a solicitor to argue your case, and straight away they'll have to take you seriously. Do you have legal expenses cover on your insurance policy? That's what it's for. He'll get you a fair value for your car, based on the circumstances and the original quality of the vehicle, not what your assessor reads out of a book as market value. 169144-ok.gif

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  • 1 month later...

I've just been reading this thread and wow, you've had a lot on your plate this last year. I'm interested in knowing how things turned out for you. I hope you got legal advice and stuck it to 'em! 169144-ok.gif

The joys of owning an older vehicle, eh? I have a 1979 Series 3 Land Rover which I have spent thousands on; but I know it wouldn't take much for an insurance company to write it off, as they'd still only assign it minimal value. crazy.gif

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  • 7 months later...

Final update -- but please don't respond on this thread : it's time to close it, I think.

Apologies for the MASSIVE delay in my posting the "how it ends" of the story.

So, how DID it turn out? DO we get to live happily ever after? Well, probably not : life's not LIKE that. But the car's okay. On balance...

The insurance company wrote it off (there was no real way of our stopping them do that in the time). And we claimed the 'salvage rights' and took the car back off them thus for a fee, found a bonnet in the right colour and one of those damned elusive 'Quattro' headlamp units (oh yes : and some front MATS -- because it didn't have mats...) -- all in about a day in a Kent scrapyard and for basically peanuts. Our garage fixed what was damaged and put it all back together and put the scrapyard parts on and had it through the MOT the following morning, a week and a bit after the insurance company'd declared it "written off". Then it was vehicle-checked to go back on the DVLA's records, we had the wheel alignment redone and new tyres, and it now drives again. Ha!

But yes : this is London. So the mirrors have been wrenched by drunken show-offs reeling home down our street a few times since then and the offside one now doesn't 'seat' right; the bumper's been scraped in a pretty deep and not very fetching blue by an incompetent Honda trying to park without looking; it's been scratched deliberately a bit more quite a few more times by those who seemingly are jealous of it (which is beyond me completely -- it's fifteen years old, almost : WHAT is your problem..?) And (of course, yes) it's been clipped, caught, and slammed into by the odd cyclist in their equally odd 'Tour de France' lurex and gifted with their even odder notion of what red lights, indicators, and such nuisance details might actually MEAN...

So it's got one or two obvious dents in it, and -- yes -- it's worth close to quite frankly bugger all and yet has cost us a quite tidy if small fortune...

But from time to time it is the calmest and most reassuringly effortless place to be (and is yet better STILL at this once I've dropped everybody off and all the squabbling's stopped and it's -- finally -- just the car, ME, and wherever I am going...)

Thank you everybody, then, for your last eighteen months of help : I'm not sure we'd have quite 'come out the other side' without it.

You take care now

best

--

John

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