Golfer Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 [ QUOTE ] The simple matter of this whole argument is that you sell a product which you will advertise as "+30bhp" or whatever. And lets say in reality it does give you an increase, but only of 20bhp. The customer is still happy because he can feel the car is quicker but you can't substanciate your claims because you refuse to prove them. Its not just a matter of if the person is happy with the job, its a case of if you are telling the truth or not about the actual gains. Lets face it, I could poke around under the bonnet of a car for 10 minutes with a laptop, do nothing and tell someone I'd given them an extra 5bhp or a slightly stronger mid-range and after a test drive they'd probably tell me they could feel the difference purely because I told them it was there. People can't always pick up on small changes especially in a car weighing a tonne and a half but that doesn't mean they don't matter. If I were to choose ECU Will Super Fantastic Tuning Inc. over AmD or REVO or whoever because they told me that I could expect the same or better performance as with a competitors map and I found out that it offered inferior gains I wouldn't be happy, and I'm not saying thats what you are doing, but without proving it there will always be people who will care too much about there car to even give you a second look. [/ QUOTE ] Just for your information: The majority of tuners in the uk use "THE SAME" tunning data provided by a mapper, these are NOT custom made but standard code provided in a vehicle table list for all to "quote from" sorry to disalusion you guys but it's the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 Complete B.S. If they are all the same then how come they all behave/drive very differently. How many have you driven? Have you not noticed that some are very smooth, some have a kick and are then progressive, some have a big kick and fall off kickly, etc etc. Admittedly there are a couple of tuners out there where their maps seem very close to each other (and there are various reasons for this) but to suggest that the majority of tuners use the same map is crazy. I'd be interested to read what maps you have driven and also how you can say they're the same. Have you seen graphs of them all so we can see the similarity? If so please post them as all the different maps I've driven have felt different and surprise surprise have produced very different graphs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcs_80 Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 OK, even though I dont need or wish to deal with people like yourself, caould you tell me where this came from........ [ QUOTE ] If I were to choose ECU Will Super Fantastic Tuning Inc. over AmD or REVO [/ QUOTE ] First of all, dont mess about with company names, which arent associated with me, and secondly, if you can manage it, please dont give the impression that I have EVER said I am a super tuner, or better than anyone else. The only people singing my praises are the guys who have a had a re-map, not myself. Accusing me of being a 'Super Tuner' is like me telling you, that you (and others) are the 'The Fountain Of All Knowledge Guru' so dont do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcs_80 Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 To tie this thread up (and just to make a point, if it drives like, if not better, and is as safe for the car) I have quoted a feedback off an old member on here, maybe you can quiz him if you know him: [ QUOTE ] Car - Audi A4 1.9TDI 130 Quite simply, Will has transformed my car! This is my 3rd PD Engine ECU remap and this IMHO is of equal performance to a previous/expensive Revo Techinc Custom remap. In terms of service and value, I will NOT being looking elswhere in the future! Will has earned a repeat Customer here! To put performance into perspective, my car can comfortably go toe to toe with the new Audi A6 30.TDI. Thank you Will! [/ QUOTE ] I have yet to meet a customer who will have a re-map because of a graph as apposed to this. This is why I do what I do, I want my customers to be happy, and enjoy what I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rustynuts Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 Will you tell us who's mapping / software etc. you use then? or is it your own? Surely that's not a secret. I'm a heating engineer, and if someone asked me which make of boiler I was going to install for them and I couldn't tell them, how would it look to the customer? Me saying "Ask all my previous customers if they're happy and make a choice based on that feedback." wouldn't get me much work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shark_90 Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 Well I really wish I hadn't have bothered to introduce Will to the forum. As I've said before. You pays your money. You gets what you want. Really shows the spirit of the forum, this thread. Bang on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mook Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 I've not met Will so can't speak for any work he's done, but I know that he remapped Shark's old A4 sootchucker and he was a happy bunny, but... There are three criteria for me choosing a tuner, which is why I still go back to AmD and Big Boys Toys: 1) They've been around a while. 2) They can demonstrate their work (either by taking me out in a demonstrator or by referring me to one of their customers who has what I am looking for so that they can take me out in their car). 3) They can provide documented evidence about the style of their remap, normally by a dyno plot. 4) They can provide customer references. Will, I believe you can meet 2) and 4) above, and I have no idea how long you've been operating for, but surely this is a case of wanting to get into the market and providing the market with the information it needs to make a decision to use you over another company. Tuning is a very competitive market and, IMO, you need to give any prospective customer as little opportunity as possible to raise objections to using your services. This might seem to come across as a little old-fashioned way of doing business, but it's always worked for me. I believe that a lot of people on Tyresmoke are looking for 3) above (at least this thread seems to have borne that out!). Totally aside from your discussions with Scotty, despite the fact that you don't have your own dyno, can you not see that it would be advantageous to provide this information? You'd basically then be able to remove any objections from people to using your services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mook Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Just for your information: The majority of tuners in the uk use "THE SAME" tunning data provided by a mapper, these are NOT custom made but standard code provided in a vehicle table list for all to "quote from" sorry to disalusion you guys but it's the truth. [/ QUOTE ] Sorry John, but this is plain not the case for the mainstream tuners - I can't speak for the independent tuners, like Will, for example. I know for a fact that AmD, REVO, APR and MTM all have different software remaps, which is why you get different behaviour based on where the torque is delivered (esp. with turbo'd cars). The difference, however, is that, when you book your car into AmD, one of REVOs resellers, APR or MTM, the remap is not developed specifically for your car. A remap which has been set up specifically for your model of car is applied. I looked long and hard into remapping my A4 1.8T a long time ago and spoke to all the tuners at length and this is the message I got from all of them. I went with AmD at the time and have used them ever since. If you want a remap which is developed specifically for your car, you can get it done, but you'll need to book a full day on the dyno and part with close to £1K, which, IMO, is not worth the extra money to gain a few more bhp or Nm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golfer Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Just for your information: The majority of tuners in the uk use "THE SAME" tunning data provided by a mapper, these are NOT custom made but standard code provided in a vehicle table list for all to "quote from" sorry to disalusion you guys but it's the truth. [/ QUOTE ] Sorry John, but this is plain not the case for the mainstream tuners - I can't speak for the independent tuners, like Will, for example. I know for a fact that AmD, REVO, APR and MTM all have different software remaps, which is why you get different behaviour based on where the torque is delivered (esp. with turbo'd cars). The difference, however, is that, when you book your car into AmD, one of REVOs resellers, APR or MTM, the remap is not developed specifically for your car. A remap which has been set up specifically for your model of car is applied. I looked long and hard into remapping my A4 1.8T a long time ago and spoke to all the tuners at length and this is the message I got from all of them. I went with AmD at the time and have used them ever since. If you want a remap which is developed specifically for your car, you can get it done, but you'll need to book a full day on the dyno and part with close to £1K, which, IMO, is not worth the extra money to gain a few more bhp or Nm. [/ QUOTE ] Take your points Mook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golfer Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Complete B.S. If they are all the same then how come they all behave/drive very differently. How many have you driven? Have you not noticed that some are very smooth, some have a kick and are then progressive, some have a big kick and fall off kickly, etc etc. Admittedly there are a couple of tuners out there where their maps seem very close to each other (and there are various reasons for this) but to suggest that the majority of tuners use the same map is crazy. I'd be interested to read what maps you have driven and also how you can say they're the same. Have you seen graphs of them all so we can see the similarity? If so please post them as all the different maps I've driven have felt different and surprise surprise have produced very different graphs. [/ QUOTE ] Strange that as I have conntacted 6 tuners and they have all quoted the same BHP/Torque figures! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rustynuts Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Well I really wish I hadn't have bothered to introduce Will to the forum. As I've said before. You pays your money. You gets what you want. Really shows the spirit of the forum, this thread. Bang on. [/ QUOTE ] I was only asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcs_80 Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 Thats all fair comment. I am still waiting some chaps to send me their dyno results. I have not mentioned it because I have no idea when. There are 2 which i wil post when I have them...... 1) 2005 Audi A4 2.0TDI 2)VW Sharan 1.9 TDI 90bhp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Strange that as I have conntacted 6 tuners and they have all quoted the same BHP/Torque figures! [/ QUOTE ] Many tuners came up with a figure of 265bhp for TT remaps. There were a lot of very different maps available though and all from different tuners. This is why I (and others) keep banging on about graphs as peak figures are no worth much. Is this all your comment is based on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golfer Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Strange that as I have conntacted 6 tuners and they have all quoted the same BHP/Torque figures! [/ QUOTE ] Many tuners came up with a figure of 265bhp for TT remaps. There were a lot of very different maps available though and all from different tuners. This is why I (and others) keep banging on about graphs as peak figures are no worth much. Is this all your comment is based on? [/ QUOTE ] No my son is in the business of program building and he says, that these maps are blocks ( arrays) of code and there are more than one combination of "blocks" that give different end results!, by which these blocks are available to many tuners ( not all have the expertise to write the code )to "group" as they wish. Does this make sense?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 It makes sense as it's true but I don't see how stating how the tuning's done means that it's one guys map in most of the UK market? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golfer Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 [ QUOTE ] It makes sense as it's true but I don't see how stating how the tuning's done means that it's one guys map in most of the UK market? [/ QUOTE ] Yea prohaps "the phrasing" was naf, apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mb Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Strange that as I have conntacted 6 tuners and they have all quoted the same BHP/Torque figures! [/ QUOTE ] Many tuners came up with a figure of 265bhp for TT remaps. There were a lot of very different maps available though and all from different tuners. This is why I (and others) keep banging on about graphs as peak figures are no worth much. Is this all your comment is based on? [/ QUOTE ] I think this is inevitable, as is the bhp inflation that accompanies it - most people are lured by a smart looking advert and the biggest bhp number, they are not as discerning enough to weigh up power & torque curves. When I bought my G60 it had been chipped to "195 bhp" but ran poorly the previous owner (who I knew) had never put it on a dyno. On the dyno it read 145 with the ignition so far advanced that the the knock sensor was cutting in and retarding the ignition - rechipped and it produced 185 bhp, loads of torque and no knock. This is why power isn't everything (especially claimed bhp), most people will want a dyno curve & the more analytical care about the shape of that curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeA2B Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 Hi all, sorry to butt in on this thread, Will tuned my 2.5 TDI a couple of months back and I have to say there is a difference in the way the power is delivered and it's definately made an improvement to the way the car drives, one thing concerned me at first was the way will carried out the remap in secrecy, although now I dont blame him as I wouldn't like to show my trade secrets to others either. Like most businesses they start from nothing, if Wll is any good then as time goes by his enterprise will grow, if he does succeed then he'll probably think about becoming a little more professional and offer graphs. Nice one Will, Like Shark, i'm chuffed as f**K Graph, er will this do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted April 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 I wouldn't pay to have that power graph! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danksy Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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