Jump to content

Superchips


allanon_1980
 Share

Recommended Posts

As I have posted elsewhere in the GTI forum, my current understanding is that there is approx 40% more headroom tolerance in the published max figures of 258 lbft / 300 Nm for the DSG box of tricks. This means it's theoretically not sensible for a tuner to subject DSG in excess of 361 Ibft / 420 Nm torque. I expect a GTI DSG with more torque than this would still perform very well but I would be very concerned about the longevity/reliability/durability.

Of course it's entirely up to the individual to choose whichever tuner they feel most confident in and to re-map as much as they feel comfortable with. The point is that however much or little extra power and torque is introduced, there will be a degree of extra stresses and therefore potential problems. The reason why a manufacturer supplies a car with a 'headroom' tolerance is to accommodate long term road use (as opposed to short term track use)....It isn't provided directly for the benefit of tuning businesses! Tuners have every right to exploit the headroom but we, the car owners, need to understand the possible consequences of tuning, especially with a relatively new technology such as DSG.

I'm probably in a minority in this view and am wasting my time posting this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 63
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Hi Red,

I'm trying to comprehend your concerns as I may go down the chipping route at some point. According to the VW website, the maximum output of the GTI is 207 lbs.ft / 280 Nm

Superchips quote a 54Nm increase from 273NM to 317Nm max.torque so that's well within your quoted theoretical max of 420Nm and still less than the output of the Diesel DSG's.

Please put me straight, but from the above figures I don't see an issue with regard to the increased torque produced from a 'typical' re-map. confused.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Melchior,

The VW web site you link to shows 207 lbft / 280 Nm, which is even less. Dial in the +40% 'headroom' and the theoretical max now becomes 290 lbft / 392 Nm.

Where are you getting the info that the GTI's torque is less than the diesel DSGs? It's less than the R32 DSG. To be honest, I don't know what differences the type of engine will or won't have on the DSG technology but I would expect the ECU and similar controls to play a part even if the DSG box itself is identical. Having said that, the DSG's Mechatronics Module may be different according to the engine type.

My concern is simply that the more the power envelope (torque and bhp) is extended by tuning, the more physical stresses are put on the engine and other components, and consequently the greater the risk of potential failures over time to the standard car without further appropriate mods.

This is not the same as thinking that any power increases are safe as long as they don't exceed that 140% figure - It's a progressive concern. Even my Milltek Hi-flow exhaust will be 'fine tuning' the engine and turbo, but obviously to only a very small degree. I believe that MTM's 300 bhp GTI has an entirely different turbo fitted - Ask yourselves why?

How many of us would buy a used car knowing it had been re-mapped?

The whole subject is quite complex and confusing, but all I'm doing is sharing my concerns and also hoping for reliable and positive answers. I may rewrite these concerns and post a new topic in the Tuning forum in due course. I actually want people to respond and tell me I'm wrong - But giving very reliable, concrete reasons why I need not have such concerns.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[ QUOTE ]

Hi Melchior,

Where are you getting the info that the GTI's torque is less than the diesel DSGs?

[/ QUOTE ] The VW Website.

I appreciate you sharing your concerns 169144-ok.gif it's an interesting debate. I appreciate that the point I am making is a simplistic one namely that the torque output of a standard Diesel DSG is more than a Superchipped DSG and this may not take in to considerations variations in components between the different applications. But on the other hand if the DSG boxes are identical in components relevant to the discussion then it would be no problem for the Golf GTI DSG to handle the extra torque of a remap.

Max torque from Golf GT TDI 140PS 5Door = 320 Nm (from vw website)

Max torque of Superchipped Golf GTI DSG = 317 Nm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have spoken with my dealer this morning about mods to the MKV vs Warranty vs Manuf. Tolerances.

According to them an internal memo was released to them in Dec 2005 to address customer enquiries regrading tuning and how VW will support them.

Previously I understand that the official line was "we don't mind as long as you don't try warranty claims against components directly affected as a result of a failure due to an upgrade".

The Dec 2005 memo I had read out to me went something along the lines of "any claim will be invalid against a vehicle that has had any performance enhancing upgrade for either the engine or gearbox management unit control systems". This seems much more harsh than before, would assume that "gearbox management unit" relates to DSG in particular.

Another interesting point was that it also mentioned "any engine enhancement modification is likely to result in worse noise and emissions output, and is therefore deemed inappropriate, and whilst recognising that fuel consumption and performance can be improved, there is a likelihood that the manufacturers tolerances could be exceeded" - the noise/emissions bit could well relate to the plethora of new EU laws governing car manufacturers.

This has made me think carefully about where I go with any tuning upgrades, I don't have DSG but I am wary of the new legal mumbo-jumbo that may surround the above statement.

Typically, they would not send me a copy of the memo as they did not want to be quoted on it. So perhaps the old rule will still apply (sensible behaviour from some dealers when handling vehicles that have been to AMD, Milltek, Superchips etc), but there are now more get-out clauses.

Will be interesting to see of any of the tuners have any opinions on this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Melchior 169144-ok.gif - This certainly is a very interesting discussion and perfectly demonstrates how useful TSN is.

rs32 - That's a very useful piece of info you have discovered. It's not what lots of us want to hear but at least it's a specific statement. I was told by a very experienced race engineer recently that VW's manufacturing tolerances were likely to be GENERALLY and unofficially about +40%. Most tuners seem to be working within such tolerances but, unfortunately, I can't help still thinking that the higher the numbers, the higher the risks.

For what it's worth, I recently (this year) had a DSG one-off 'hiccup' which resulted in the dealer's diagnostics throwing up a fault code which VW Technical had to deal with. My DSG Mechatronics Module was (painlessly!) replaced free of charge under warranty and with the full knowledge that my car has Millteks (you can hardly miss Quads!). The Gearbox Control Unit and Mechatronics Modules are separate units. My car is not re-mapped.

Indeed it will be interesting to hear what the tuners' opinions are and this is why I intend to later post a new topic in the Tuning forum.

169144-ok.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[ QUOTE ]

I think the feeling is that the actual surface area of each of the 2 clutchs is less than the single clutch in the manual transmission hence more likely to premature failure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think that as well. However, it seems the dual clutch setup is pretty robust and offers good cooling to provide better performance.

I looked up pictures to get a better view of the "dual clutch" and from what I see, there really doesn't appear to be any disadvantage to the dual clutch discs compared to a single disc clucth.

Clamping force appears quite satisfactory.

I would agree that the weakest link in any manual is the clutch first, same here with the DSG. Yet, it seems quite well managed and designed to handle the 3.2TT, R32, A3 3.2. As well, I'm sure the system is purposefully overbuilt beyond the 3.2 engine output spec. We can guess how far as we don't know.

But, you wouldn't build to cope with 250lb. ft. if mating the trans to an engine putting out 225lb. ft. That would be cutting it close.

It's possible this DSG can handle probably 50% above the 3.2 engines torque output.

I'm not sure if Red was saying that as well.

I think the DSG is quite robust and should be able to handle the modded output of the 2.0T easily.

If one were to exceed that, the we need to look at who will be building optional clutch packs for the DSG. Anyone yet?

TT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The truth is that no one here knows what the torque limits of the DSG or manual box really are. As with any performance upgrade there are risks, I'm fortunate enough to be in a country where VW will stand by an ECU remapped car if the remap is supplied by them. This unfortunately does not seem to apply anywhere else (that I have heard of anyway).

I also believe that faith needs to be placed in the suppliers of these remaps, some with many many years experience with VAG engines and components. I am sure the likes of Amd, mtm, Oettinger etc are well aware of the limitations and margins that need to be respected and work around them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree, Jono - We don't know the limits beyond those published by VW. However, given the increasingly sophisticated electronics in modern cars, I personally still find it difficult to have quite so much faith in the tuners regarding DSG in the longer term.

Certainly the tuners do their best and work around any limitations they are aware of, but they too are profit orientated businesses and it's easy for them to cop out later by saying that the fault is in the original car and their tuning only brought it out. I think MTM's UK representatives QST, for example, only give a matter of days to reject their work and none of them give any guarantees beyond the value of their parts (minimal).

I'm wondering what a VW dealer would do if taking a re-mapped GTI as part exchange and then offering it on the forecourt with "Full VW Seal of Approval".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[ QUOTE ]

red - you could call city VW as they just had a remapped gti come through - aparrently it was nearly 270bhp - not sure about much else though... should have asked what they did about / with it. I was told by a guy called Kas... (cant remember what it was short for).

[/ QUOTE ]

do you know if was it a manual or dsg?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[ QUOTE ]

It's not what lots of us want to hear but at least it's a specific statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

tell me about it. not what I wanted to hear at all. planning on trying the same Q with a few other franchises as I never got an answer whether the dealer would honor the upgraded setup, just that VW give the advice not to - so that was their line too. The outcome of the statement (if applied as read out to me) changes the game a bit IMO, certainly makes me think a bit more cautiously.

It's not stopping me from looking at the FSD's though. And possibly a certain exhaust manufacturer's product range when available sekret.gif

169144-ok.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bear in mind that any mechnical modification can affect your warranty. Don't fool yourself that VW wouldn't use a modified exhaust system or suspension setup to deny a warranty claim if it can argue that it was related to the fault.

I wanted to upgrade the suspension on my Alfa 147, I was told that if I changed it I can kiss my factory warranty good bye....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

lol. zwei hundert und funfzig Pferdestärke indeed....

the confusion between the VW stance and dealers who are openly handling modded cars is ridiculous. Would guess that if you have a dealer who is fine with the idea then stick with them, I am not having any joy at the moment. Remapping seems to be the biggest issue, don't see that exhaust or suspension/brakes would be as much of a problem. After all, what possible link can be created between e.g. sticking FSD's on then having a MAF fail on you ?

trying another dealer later on. 169144-ok.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chaps, to add my bit to this argument, was flicking through Volkswagen driver in the newsagents the other day and read the bit where they were interviewing the technical lead for the R32 and asked the question about an R36. The German guy replied that they never planned to put the 3.6 into the golf even though the DSG could handle the torque. IIRC a figure of 350 (Nm ?) was offered. Will go back and have another look if they still have a copy.

BTW, 12 days until I join GTi heaven beerchug.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...