gregmaddocks Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 i have a set of Apex lowering springs (approx 55-60mm drop)for my MK4 Golt GTi and i would like to know if these will improve my cars handling and look lower compared to the current springs on it? if any one has any opinions please get back to me!!?!?!?!?! regards gti owner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oli Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 Of course it will, but 55-60mm is quite a drop and your ride will be a lot firmer, than it is now. But it will also lok a lot better, especially if you pop some 18s on it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriswastle Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 A 60 mm drop will obviously give the car a much lower ride, 25-35mm is the norm.They will not make the car handle any better without matched dampers( shockers), and you will have loads of trouble with sleeping policemen!!! BTW the quoted 55-60mm drop is over a standard golf( i think) and the GTIs were 15mm lower,so the drop would probably be about 40mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oli Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 I beg to differ of course itll handle better, lower centre of gravity, harder spring?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriswastle Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 Wheres snoopy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oli Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 who cares! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 I'm by no means an expert on this subject of lowering but I would def consider Anti-roll Bars and stiffer springs and shocks. I think it's a matter of achieving the right mix and balance of these suspension components and not a matter of just one feature in isolation. It's also a question of what is practical for the type of roads you generally use. Btw, lower your driver's seat position to lowest poss - It all helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oli Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 If you lower a car it is definately going to handle better than before?!! Are we all agreed? Good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie_d Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 [ QUOTE ] I beg to differ of course itll handle better, lower centre of gravity, harder spring?? [/ QUOTE ] Not true mate. People think that lower springs = better handling, but this is not always the case. It's the same as exhausts, too restrictive and you lose power, too free and you'll lose power. Tuning is a comprimise. Remember that stiff springs can make a car very twitchy and over rough terrain make the car lose grip and actually handle worse. I personally think a 60mm drop would be too much on a Golf. Also remember that you'll need to match dampers to the car, unless you want to wear your dampers out very quickly. Also, imho, a change of dampers actually has a greater effect on the handling of the car! Whatever, it's your car mate and you certainly won't ruin it by putting those springs on, however be warned about the shocks wearing out and don't expect an increase in handling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyp Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 Hi there mk4golfgti, Welcome to TSN, [ QUOTE ] i have a set of Apex lowering springs (approx 55-60mm drop)for my MK4 Golt GTi and i would like to know if these will improve my cars handling and look lower compared to the current springs on it? if any one has any opinions please get back to me!!?!?!?!?! regards gti owner [/ QUOTE ] My friend and i recenltly added spax srings to his mk4 gti, 35mm, and this IMO is the best ride hide, it is "bumpy" enough as it is without going any lower, i think you will suffer from 55-60mm as this is quite low, yes the handling will improve to a degree but do you really want a bad back from them??? Yes, it will look a hell of a lot lower but if i were you i wouuldn't go lower than 35mm, it's not worth it IMO. HTH in some way. cheers jimmy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oli Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 Sorry Stevie, your wrong, it certainly won't handle any worse. Like I already said 60mm is too much but if he lowered it 35 - 40mm, it will handle better. I have had lots of cars and in my teens would only ever fit springs, and they always handled better, plus braked better too, which is probably the most important factor. People forget that your braking improves when you lower the car, therfore enabling you to drive it faster. I rest my case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rs32 Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 each car is different OliH a 60mm drop is certainly a lot, and even 35-40mm may compromise the handling if the right dampers aren't used. Not sure handling or braking would always be improved with just adding very stiff springs - can you relate this claim specifically to the MkIV GTI ? If not then you need to revisit your comment about Stevie_d's advice. In fact I would wager you may get more of an improvement by fitting uprated dampers on their own rather than springs (an example of such a product would be Koni FSD dampers). This will all depend on the type of car, quality of base chassis, condition of all other suspension parts and what you are looking for in terms of handling improvements. And as for being able to drive "faster" with just the springs changed, there's too many fools out there that change just one thing on their cars and then think they're Michael Schumacher. You aren't one of those OliH are you mk4golfgti - you could also try speaking with some tuning companies that deal with the MkIV - I would recommend you take the other advice here and do some more research first. Your springs may well make the car look better, but I wouldn't risk just throwing them onto the car as you may be disappointed with the handling results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 [ QUOTE ] In fact I would wager you may get more of an improvement by fitting uprated dampers on their own rather than springs (an example of such a product would be Koni FSD dampers). This will all depend on the type of car, quality of base chassis, condition of all other suspension parts and what you are looking for in terms of handling improvements. [/ QUOTE ] In the case of KoniFSDs, I was advised by AwesomeGTI, Koni, Eibach, and West Tuning, that I should upgrade the OEM springs if using KoniFSDs. Surely the springs and dampers/shocks should always be considered together. It wasn't as important to upgrade the Anti-roll bars but it made sense in order to further improve the whole suspension. The lowering is no more than 5mm. So, my Mk5 GTI doesn't look any sexier by being lower, but I can only report that she feels and drives much better (not that standard wasn't good). I'm sure that jaysgti, who has exactly the same suspension, would report the same. Without going into loads of spec detail, Ray West's GTI is driven on both road and track and is only lowered about 30mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R32North Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 You're aforgetting that any drop of more than 25-30mm will require the tracking to be checked as well as camber and toe-ing. It always chnages when you chnage the ride height but usually is within the limits when you drop aboout 25-30mm. Over 40mm and it will be out, around 55-60mm and you will have problems!! Also, the standard dampers will take a pounding, and with such a servre drop its likely they'll experience problems as well and I'd uprate those too. I'd only run springs and std dampers with a small drop to allow the dampe to operate (nearly) in its designed postion and range, 55mm drop will mean the damper is a) no longer matched to the springs and dynamics of the car, b) will be operating under different load and (compression) and rebound conditions, and c) operating at the wrong position on its stroke - all of which means problems! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 Hi 'Six' - Your post exactly matches info/advice that I have received. Even with only 5mm drop after fitting my suspension, Ray West laser checked it. And I know that on his own 30mm dropped GTI he has tweaked camber etc. One of the main advantages of fitting the KoniFSDs is that nothing about them is extreme, and, of course, their technology is a breakthrough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rs32 Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Surely the springs and dampers/shocks should always be considered together. [/ QUOTE ] Yes I would agree here Robin - I did some reading after you originally recommended them and saw a quote somewhere that FSD's are designed by Koni for use with the original springs for a given application. That's not to say that uprating the springs when fitting FSD's won't give extra improvement though. If using uprated "standard-style" dampers I would 100% back the notion of changing springs also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 For what it's worth, I'm told that both the McLaren and one or two other supercars use Koni FSD. They are selling like hot cakes in Europe - Doubtless for good reason. I wouldn't be surprised if Koni FSDs become OEM on a future version of cars like the GTI/R32 and other production 'performance' cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie_d Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Sorry Stevie, your wrong, it certainly won't handle any worse. Like I already said 60mm is too much but if he lowered it 35 - 40mm, it will handle better. I have had lots of cars and in my teens would only ever fit springs, and they always handled better, plus braked better too, which is probably the most important factor. People forget that your braking improves when you lower the car, therfore enabling you to drive it faster. I rest my case. [/ QUOTE ] Sorry mate, trust me on this, you're wrong! Lowering a car by 60mm will change the geometry of the suspension and not necessarily for the better! Car companies spend millions on development of cars, simply fitting lower springs will not always lead to an improvement in the handling. A 60mm drop is VERY likely to make the car skitish and twitchy. As I said earlier, you can also lose grip on very rough/bumpy roads. Ride quality will also be drastically reduced and there maybe an issue of rubbing, which will increase the turning circle and possibly cause damage to the car. As someone else said, a drop 60mm will certainly change the toe/camber/alignment of the car, by around 2 deg for the camber. This will cause tyre wear and worse handling. As for the 30mm drop, well, perhaps the handling will improve slightly, but this depends on what you define as handling. An inexperienced driver will think "wow, my car is rolling less, it must be gripping and handling better"...This is not always true, I've driven MKIV's with a 30mm drop and there's very little change in the handling over oem. However, when matched with shocks they can improve the handling. Although 30mm is unlikely to cause any short term issues, you must realise that any drop in suspension changes the forces on the other suspension components and may cause increased wear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregmaddocks Posted March 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 thanks guys cheers for the info - i got the springs for free so havent spent nething on them. and when the ol' job sorts out my pay in a bit im investing in a set of FK highsport coilovers. i helped fit some on my mates mk2 gti on 15" ronal turbos n it looks sweet and handles like a ****in dream. and i do agree the ride atm is quite bumpy but i find that thru roundabouts and sharp bends my car does tend to lean (cocking its rear wheel like a GTi shud!!!!) any other input anyone has will be much appreciated thanks again guys!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oli Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Sorry guys, Ive been in the motor trade for 20 years, and I will stand by what I have said. If you read my previous threads I agree that 60mm is too much and 30-35 mm is better, and of course yes he must have a four wheel and camber alignment - Golfs are prone to problems in this area as they have full geometry adjustment. When ever we do anything with the suspension on any car we carry out a full four wheel and camber alignment. The argument/topic is that it wont handle any better - If you lower a car by 35mm, and after checking the alignemnt, it will handle better because a) Lower centre of gravity - this will certainly make it handle better b) Hard springs will stiffen the ride and when you brake there is less suspension travel, so your braking is improved, So therefore the car will be able to be driven quicker I am not denying that this is the best solution, as fitting a complete suspension kit would be a whole lot better, but his original question was, will it handle better - YES and will it look better - YES, and like Id already said he would be better going for a 35mm drop not 60mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriswastle Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC950 Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Sorry guys, Ive been in the motor trade for 20 years, and I will stand by what I have said. If you read my previous threads I agree that 60mm is too much and 30-35 mm is better, and of course yes he must have a four wheel and camber alignment - Golfs are prone to problems in this area as they have full geometry adjustment. When ever we do anything with the suspension on any car we carry out a full four wheel and camber alignment. The argument/topic is that it wont handle any better - If you lower a car by 35mm, and after checking the alignemnt, it will handle better because a) Lower centre of gravity - this will certainly make it handle better b) Hard springs will stiffen the ride and when you brake there is less suspension travel, so your braking is improved, So therefore the car will be able to be driven quicker I am not denying that this is the best solution, as fitting a complete suspension kit would be a whole lot better, but his original question was, will it handle better - YES and will it look better - YES, and like Id already said he would be better going for a 35mm drop not 60mm [/ QUOTE ] Sorry Oli, but your view is just way too simplistic to be correct. Simply by lowering a car by 30mm and checking the alignment will not guarantee better handling. The two advantages that you report (gravity and travel) are given in isolation and you are ignoring the various possible dissadvantages that come with lowering - for example on a GTI, such as damping bounce , wheel lift, nervousness, imperfect geometry, excessive understeer or excessive tyre wear - and any one of those can more than errode any gains you have made elsewhere. Remember, we drive on less than smooth surfaces and your first priority should be to keep all 4 tyres on the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 CMC950 - The original poster's question is somewhat simplistic and most of us answering have been trying to point out that there's far more to consider than just lowering by changing the springs. Oli's responses have been no different in this respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oli Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Thank you Robin, everyone is missing the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC950 Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 [ QUOTE ] CMC950 - The original poster's question is somewhat simplistic and most of us answering have been trying to point out that there's far more to consider than just lowering by changing the springs. Oli's responses have been no different in this respect. [/ QUOTE ] Actually, what he said was "his original question was, will it handle better (just by lowering it)" - and his answer was an emphatic "Yes" which sounds rather definate. And I've said, no, that's not necessarily a fact... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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