Wobby Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 .....anyone with knowledge of this quite old mechanical type of fuel injection. My research shows it was fitted to Mk1 golf GTI's? Need to pick someones brains on this system and maybe steal parts if they have any Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rustynuts Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 It was also fitted to my Mk2 Scirroco GTI, and I know very little about it. If you're very lucky, I might have a set of 8V 1.8ltr injectors sitting around on a shelf.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mook Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 What do you need Wobby? Ask away. We've got one in our Scumball Scirocco Scala, but not for long.... K-Jet was used in the Mk1 Golf GTI and the early Mk2's as well as the Scirocco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobes49 Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 It a mechanical fuel injection, Air is sucked from under the airbox past a rising plate, as the plate rises more fuel is delivered to the engine. That the basics, there a lot of other parts like thermo time switches and warm up valves but they get very complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobby Posted March 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 I knew this forum would have the knowledge!! Its fitted to a Westfield kit car. The engine is a ford pinto 2.0 thats been turbo'd. Have a starting problem from cold. It refuses to start unless we lift the flap a fraction to force it to inject fuel, this is a problem as although it will the run when held on the throttle, for the engine to run it needs the ducting in place to create airflow to lift the plate. So we get it to start, holding it on the throttle with the plate held open. Then let it stop put the bits back together and away it goes. No big deal but does need sorting. It does have 2 extra injectors for cold start (not checked these are working but we think we can hear them activate). They're not on a timer, just on a switch on the dash Main problem is when you lift off the accelerator we get unburnt fuel through into the exhaust, this ignites and makes bit of a noise with the occasional flame out the end of the exhaust. We have just changed the head, the old head was a leaded head (we think) and had suffered valve damage (not stripped to confirm yet). Also as we go up the revs its seems to run out of steam and misfires. The cam and valves are standard btw. No working rev guage so not sure of revs. It seems to fly once on boost then misfire so you have to change up! It has a boost switch but it just fisfires on full boost. Low boost is 160bhp and full boost is 190bhp, my guess is we are around 130bhp. Car weighs 570kg so it feels fast to us but do need it running better as we are going to track days in a month or so. On the metering head there is 2 allen ket adjustments. One is for idle and the other is for fueling levels higher on higher air flows. Not sure if we should mess with these setting without correct equipment. It does have a warm up valve that seems to have bimetalic/ heater strip that allows extra fuel through until it heats up over a few minutes. The electrical connection looks to have never been connected. My thoughts are that at least on injector is not sealing and is dribbling fuel into the manifold. We can check this and the quantities of fuel to see if they are injecting similar amounts of fuel. My other thoughts is that the CR is too high for the turbo and we get detonation. The turbo was fitted by Turbo technics a long time ago. I think the engine has had a lot of parts replaced since then. Going to take the car to a rolling road tuner who specialises in ford turbo'd engines. But would like to get as much corrected first. Sorry to babble, but thats the ideas and any thoughts would be appreciated. I have probably made the car sound bad, but its not. Start it up and you develop a big silly grin that just gets bigger and bigger!! Thats once you've started the fecking thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobes49 Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 [ QUOTE ] I knew this forum would have the knowledge!! Its fitted to a Westfield kit car. The engine is a ford pinto 2.0 thats been turbo'd. Have a starting problem from cold. It refuses to start unless we lift the flap a fraction to force it to inject fuel, this is a problem as although it will the run when held on the throttle, for the engine to run it needs the ducting in place to create airflow to lift the plate. So we get it to start, holding it on the throttle with the plate held open. Then let it stop put the bits back together and away it goes. No big deal but does need sorting. It does have 2 extra injectors for cold start (not checked these are working but we think we can hear them activate). They're not on a timer, just on a switch on the dash [/ QUOTE ]# Sounds like the plate stop is too low, Remove the metering head, Look under the plate and you see a little spring that holds the plate up when it fully down, bend this to make the plate sit a touch higher in the chamber. [ QUOTE ] Main problem is when you lift off the accelerator we get unburnt fuel through into the exhaust, this ignites and makes bit of a noise with the occasional flame out the end of the exhaust. We have just changed the head, the old head was a leaded head (we think) and had suffered valve damage (not stripped to confirm yet). [/ QUOTE ] Because it mecanical there no over-run cut off so you will allways get fuel injected on over-run [ QUOTE ] Also as we go up the revs its seems to run out of steam and misfires. The cam and valves are standard btw. No working rev guage so not sure of revs. It seems to fly once on boost then misfire so you have to change up! It has a boost switch but it just fisfires on full boost. Low boost is 160bhp and full boost is 190bhp, my guess is we are around 130bhp. Car weighs 570kg so it feels fast to us but do need it running better as we are going to track days in a month or so. [/ QUOTE ] Sounds like the fuel leaning out at the top end of the rev range, try firing the cold start injectors when it happens. [ QUOTE ] On the metering head there is 2 allen ket adjustments. One is for idle and the other is for fueling levels higher on higher air flows. Not sure if we should mess with these setting without correct equipment. It does have a warm up valve that seems to have bimetalic/ heater strip that allows extra fuel through until it heats up over a few minutes. The electrical connection looks to have never been connected. My thoughts are that at least on injector is not sealing and is dribbling fuel into the manifold. We can check this and the quantities of fuel to see if they are injecting similar amounts of fuel. [/ QUOTE ] Very common fault is leaky injectors on this style of injection, Least new injector are quite cheap [ QUOTE ] My other thoughts is that the CR is too high for the turbo and we get detonation. The turbo was fitted by Turbo technics a long time ago. I think the engine has had a lot of parts replaced since then. Going to take the car to a rolling road tuner who specialises in ford turbo'd engines. But would like to get as much corrected first. Sorry to babble, but thats the ideas and any thoughts would be appreciated. I have probably made the car sound bad, but its not. Start it up and you develop a big silly grin that just gets bigger and bigger!! Thats once you've started the fecking thing [/ QUOTE ] What boost are you running? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobby Posted March 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 Thanks Tobes Boost gauge is now fixed and shows towards 14-15psi when the misfire is bad. This is on the low boost settings for the ECU. There is a variable rev limiter fitted but i dont think we are anywhere near it when it misfires. When we have hit the limiter before you can sort of tell its the limiter (i think ). Its off like a shot as the boost comes in then seems to misfire lose acceleration at maybe 10psi. I think 10psi is enough to cause detonation on a standard head with standard CR. Will try firing up the cold start injectors as we get to the misfire. Could knackered injectors cause this problem? From what i have read the system should cope with upto 210bhp max. There is an idle mixture adjustment, through a hole sitting inbetween the metering head and air plate. Would this be worth an adjustment? It just lifts the plate slightly to make it inject more. Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobby Posted March 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 [ QUOTE ] It was also fitted to my Mk2 Scirroco GTI, and I know very little about it. If you're very lucky, I might have a set of 8V 1.8ltr injectors sitting around on a shelf.... [/ QUOTE ] Would these fit/ work on my system? Trying to source the injectors. Stamped on an injector is 463223. Sent this to a supposed expert with these systems and he says thats not a part in any catalogues He says it will be in the format.... 0 437 502 xxx Is there that many different ones? We will get this car sorted if it kills us. And if we get it sorted then it WILL probably kill us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rustynuts Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 I'll have a dig this weekend (if I go to my mothers) and see if they're still there. It'll be about 10 years since I sold the old tin bath.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobby Posted March 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 Thanks, going to test them this weekend see if we can spot any faults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobby Posted March 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 Injectors are Bosch 0 437 502 012, wheres the best place to buy a set of new ones? What sort of cost involved? Seems £125 (ish) is normal for them. 2 injectors seem to produce a one sided spray (poor description!), athough none are over bad we decided to fit 4 new ones if we can. Found the cold start extra injectors dont work! No wonder we have to lift the flap to get it to start. Seems to be an electrical problem, we have started to trace the wiring! Thanks for the advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobes49 Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 [ QUOTE ] Thanks Tobes Boost gauge is now fixed and shows towards 14-15psi when the misfire is bad. This is on the low boost settings for the ECU. There is a variable rev limiter fitted but i dont think we are anywhere near it when it misfires. When we have hit the limiter before you can sort of tell its the limiter (i think ). Its off like a shot as the boost comes in then seems to misfire lose acceleration at maybe 10psi. I think 10psi is enough to cause detonation on a standard head with standard CR. Will try firing up the cold start injectors as we get to the misfire. Could knackered injectors cause this problem? From what i have read the system should cope with upto 210bhp max. There is an idle mixture adjustment, through a hole sitting inbetween the metering head and air plate. Would this be worth an adjustment? It just lifts the plate slightly to make it inject more. Thanks again [/ QUOTE ] The idle adjustment hole only effects idle, So it wont cure you misfire. The firing the cold start injector is a test to see if the mixture is leaning out on boost. Looks like they have used a Saab metering head/injectors for the conversion, with that injector part number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobby Posted March 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 Will replace injectors if we can find some! Is it worth having them tested? Can they be recalibrated? Going to run the cold start injectors once we get them working to see if it reduces the misfire. Thanks for the Saab info, at least we now know where to look Are the injectors interchangable off other systems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobes49 Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 Try GSF car parts they should do the injectors most VW ones cost about 30 each. Injectors can be tested and cleaned but that cost upto the price of a new injector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobby Posted March 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 Thanks. Best i have found so far is £46.50 inc VAT each but he hasn't got them in. Will take him a few days to get them. Is injector cleaner worth a try tobes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subzero Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 i think my old XR3I used the bosch K injection system, try some ford breakers for spares... Maybe ?? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobes49 Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 [ QUOTE ] Thanks. Best i have found so far is £46.50 inc VAT each but he hasn't got them in. Will take him a few days to get them. Is injector cleaner worth a try tobes? [/ QUOTE ] Injector cleaner can work, but it's very slow. You could take them out and get them cleaned on a injector cleaner, This cost but could work out a better way than injector cleaner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobes49 Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 [ QUOTE ] i think my old XR3I used the bosch K injection system, try some ford breakers for spares... Maybe ?? :-) [/ QUOTE ] Lots of cars used K-Jet injection but every system is different. The fuel supply on a XR3I wont be up to fuelling the turbo pinto engine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subzero Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 I stand corrected :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobby Posted April 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 re wired the cold start injectors and got them working, starts great now Was let down with someone for the new injectors, are going to order them from GSF (cheaper and sounds like he will get them!). Away in Scotland at moment so will be a few weeks before we get injectors sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobes49 Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 [ QUOTE ] re wired the cold start injectors and got them working, starts great now [/ QUOTE ] Try giving it a run and when the problem happens just flick the switch for the cold start injectors. See how you get on with this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobby Posted April 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Have you seen how much fuel squirts out of them! gonna give them a try during hard acceleration and switch them on from about 4.5k. Wont they flood the engine? have located an expert on these engines, sadly hes in Plymouth! Has anyone used steel plates with the head gasket to reduce CR? I think this will be our main problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobes49 Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Are they both on 1 switch? if so then dis-connect one when testing them. For a head gasket spacer try ferriday A better option would be lower compression pistons as these don't effect the squish band. Depend how much you want to spend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobby Posted April 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2007 Thanks for the info Tobes. Appreciate the lower comp pistons are the best option. We are after a simple fix to allow us to track the car over the summer. During this time we are also looking to build a replacement engine, probably with a cosworth head and either with or without the turbo. I think the de-comp plate may be an option to us. Done a few alterations today. Did try to switch the cold start injectors on while flooring the accelerator. TBH its terrifying, clinging onto the steering wheel for dear life and then trying to watch the rev guage as well. I tried twice and i do think it seemed to help us get past the area of the revs where it pinks but TBH i couldn't look properly, just not got the time or bollocks! I think the distributor is a standard pinto one. It will advance the engine way to far, this is what i think is part of the problem. Disconnected the vacuum advance and blanked the tube, this should have reduced the total advance when we lift off the throttle. With the vacuum on and with the fueling system we had a banging in the exhaust on a trialing throttle. This has reduced although is still present. I have also reduced the engine timing, its now showing as firing ATDC, this has reduced significantly the pinking and now allows the engine to rev fully. It has lost some power lower down but the engine feels better at all revs. A warm day today and the engine hasn't overheated although temperatures are very high if driven hard. Going to change the radiator next and measure the cc of a standard head and check piston height at TDC. Any extra advice appreciated. I think a correctly set up distributor for the turbo would be a big improvement for us. The advance curve for the standard one has too much advance. Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobes49 Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 Can we just clear up some things? Have you cured the cold start problem? with raising the plate? The problem up the top end of the rev range on boost. At first you said it had a misfire and now your saying it pinking? Back to the Distributor, Removing the Vacuum side of the distributor advance wont make any differnce to the advance on WOT (wide open throttle). Vacuum advance in only for part throttle. You got to take the distribtor out and inside there will be some weights with springs, You need to change the springs for a stronger unit, These stop the weights coming out so fast and hold the advance out longer. There will also be some limit stop you can try bending these it a touch to reduce the overall advance. Next question. What fuel you running the engine on? and any form of intercooling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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