JonnyGTi Posted May 4, 2007 Report Share Posted May 4, 2007 Just been reading June's edition of Performance Tuner mag in my local WH Smiths. There is a good 3 page review of the Bluefin superchip on a DSG GTI. The writer seems very impressed with performance gains and smoothness etc...very similar to peeps reviews on here in fact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack_is_Back Posted May 4, 2007 Report Share Posted May 4, 2007 Shame on you for not purchasing, scanning and posting on here though. I really like the idea of the Bluefin but I'm still leaning towards Revo. Not long now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ysabelle Posted May 4, 2007 Report Share Posted May 4, 2007 I am also tempted to sample the bluefin using the 7-day trial money back thingy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted May 4, 2007 Report Share Posted May 4, 2007 Bluefin and Revo Stage1 are pretty similar by all accounts but IMO Revo is more solid and doesn't rely on the internet. But.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shark_90 Posted May 4, 2007 Report Share Posted May 4, 2007 They're not similar at all - Bluefin is a remap created by editing percentage values in the map to up differing variables by a value, whereas Revo is a full code rewrite. I would go with Revo over Superchips every time, but choose a Revo dealer carefully to get the best out of your car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted May 4, 2007 Report Share Posted May 4, 2007 Thanks for correcting me, Ben - I was meaning that the results on the car feel similar. For anyone in the South wanting Revo, I would wholeheartedly recommend JKM (Jim & Kate, family biz of true entusiasts) in Portsmouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemod Posted May 4, 2007 Report Share Posted May 4, 2007 That's the third review I've seen now and all are very positive. I have had the Bluefin now for three months and can highly recommend it, especially with DSG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D1MAC Posted May 4, 2007 Report Share Posted May 4, 2007 Only word of caution I would add is that although not directly relevant to the GTI, a lot of the ASBO lads & lasses are getting out of Bluefin as it is now seen as probably the poor relation of the remaps out there. Whether it's the same for the GTI is of course open to debate but it would seem that it may be a bit simplistic when compared to the other options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarmac_Terrorist Posted May 4, 2007 Report Share Posted May 4, 2007 [ QUOTE ] Bluefin is a remap created by editing percentage values in the map to up differing variables by a value [/ QUOTE ] ....yeah Might have a go at creating one myself then - sounds straight forward enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack_is_Back Posted May 4, 2007 Report Share Posted May 4, 2007 [ QUOTE ] ...but choose a Revo dealer carefully to get the best out of your car. [/ QUOTE ] Why? Are you suggesting that some of the authorised dealers are less reputable than others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted May 4, 2007 Report Share Posted May 4, 2007 He probably means that you get different standards of customer service and aftersales service - That's exactly why I recommend JKM, plus Jim is very knowledgable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shark_90 Posted May 5, 2007 Report Share Posted May 5, 2007 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Bluefin is a remap created by editing percentage values in the map to up differing variables by a value [/ QUOTE ] ....yeah Might have a go at creating one myself then - sounds straight forward enough [/ QUOTE ] Obviously it's not that straight forward but I'm afraid I'm right. Where do you think all these cheap (sub-£200) remaps are coming from that take ten minutes to do? There are even cowboys out there that download maps from the internet and flash them onto your car and hope for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shark_90 Posted May 5, 2007 Report Share Posted May 5, 2007 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] ...but choose a Revo dealer carefully to get the best out of your car. [/ QUOTE ] Why? Are you suggesting that some of the authorised dealers are less reputable than others? [/ QUOTE ] No I'm not suggesting that at all. However (just about) anyone can become an "Authorised Revo Dealer". What I'm saying is that any Tom, Dick or indeed Harry can Revo a car. Ask Mollox, even he's done one before. I'll expand on what I said. Revo write their code for cars, an entire map (from my understanding). When a car is Revo'd it takes a copy of your existing stock map and copies it to an area of the ECU that can be switched using their SPS devices, and then it will flash the Revo map on there too, which is also switchable of course. The map that gets flashed onto your car is a "standard" map. It's just a different map to your stock one. It's exactly the same map that will go on every other Mk5 GTi that gets Revo'd. Here's the important bit: Petrol cars with ME7 and newer ECU's can be tuned further, to take advantage of the modifications you may have on your car. CAI, turbo/cat-back Milltek, etc etc. So do you want to go to a Revo dealer who's just going to stick a standard map on your car, remove your hard-earned from your wallet, and hand you back the keys, or do you want to go to a Revo dealer that'll actually tune your car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemod Posted May 5, 2007 Report Share Posted May 5, 2007 As Superchips are the only official tuning partner to Volkswagen Racing UK I assume they have access to the same hardware and software development tools as VW. The map is therefore probably based on the same map that was developed by VW engineers, the same guys that designed the engine. As an embedded software engineer I would rather trust code that was based on the original rather than reverse engineered code with a complete rewrite tested for maybe six months. It is said the simplest solutions are the best. The reason I didn't go for REVO was that I didn't like the aggressive torque curve at lower revs wheras the Superchips map follows the orginal curve with just extra boost, exactly what I wanted. The torque on the REVO also put it well past the 350Nm limit as recommended by VW on DSG cars. REVO maps can cause problems as well like This guy whose turbo blew after a REVO upgrade with only 20000 miles on the clock. At the end of the day it is how satisfied you are with the result. I know RR is happy with his REVO upgrade and I am very happy with my Bluefin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted May 5, 2007 Report Share Posted May 5, 2007 I thought that 300 ft lb (406 Nm) was the recommended upper limit for the GTI DSG. The torque certainly is 'impressive' on the Revo Stage1 but so far so good in my case. I'm not an engineer of any description but I would have thought that having hardware mods such as a Hi-flow+Downpipe exhaust and Air Intake would contribute to less stress - But I stand to be corrected. I'm not qualified to start making any claims that Revo is better than Superchips or vica versa. We each make our choices based on a variety of info we can get at the time and I really hope that everyone who has a remap has one which doesn't give problems. Both Superchips and Revo have their tales of woe and songs of praise. So far, so good. P.S. - Forge DV in production and will be available very soon - See thread in Tuning forum. Recommended safeguard precaution for any remapped 2.0T FSI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemod Posted May 5, 2007 Report Share Posted May 5, 2007 [ QUOTE ] P.S. - Forge DV in production and will be available very soon - See thread in Tuning forum. Recommended safeguard precaution for any remapped 2.0T FSI. [/ QUOTE ] Looking forward to that Robin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shark_90 Posted May 6, 2007 Report Share Posted May 6, 2007 [ QUOTE ] As Superchips are the only official tuning partner to Volkswagen Racing UK I assume they have access to the same hardware and software development tools as VW. The map is therefore probably based on the same map that was developed by VW engineers, the same guys that designed the engine. As an embedded software engineer I would rather trust code that was based on the original rather than reverse engineered code with a complete rewrite tested for maybe six months. It is said the simplest solutions are the best. The reason I didn't go for REVO was that I didn't like the aggressive torque curve at lower revs wheras the Superchips map follows the orginal curve with just extra boost, exactly what I wanted. The torque on the REVO also put it well past the 350Nm limit as recommended by VW on DSG cars. REVO maps can cause problems as well like This guy whose turbo blew after a REVO upgrade with only 20000 miles on the clock. At the end of the day it is how satisfied you are with the result. I know RR is happy with his REVO upgrade and I am very happy with my Bluefin. [/ QUOTE ] Fair enough, but if you think that the 10 minute map you get with a Bluefin is anything like the ones VWR run I imagine you're very much mistaken! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted May 6, 2007 Report Share Posted May 6, 2007 Jim at JKM spent over 2 hours remapping my car to a Revo Stage1. He used the Dyno rolling road and took it out on the road with a laptop. He also Dyno'd it again about a month later and I know that if I have any problems he'll be there willingly to help all he can. I'm (I mean "I was") a virgin when it comes to modding and remapping, and so I need to feel confident - Please be gentle with me . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemod Posted May 6, 2007 Report Share Posted May 6, 2007 [ QUOTE ] I thought that 300 ft lb (406 Nm) was the recommended upper limit for the GTI DSG. [/ QUOTE ] Saw this info on another forum Robin, it does mention the 350Nm limit but from reading it, as you have said before, VW have a bit of headroom there [ QUOTE ] The O2E DSG box has exactly the same torque rating as the O2M box found in manual R32's, and that is 350Nm or approx 258Lb/ft of torque. Internally at VW the gearboxes are known as O2E 350 and O2M 350 because of these ratings. (on Audi 3.2 TT’s they are know as MQ-350 and DQ-350 gearbox’s) same gearbox’s same torque ratings. VW also produce an O2E 280 which has a 280Nm torque rating for lesser powered VW models. The weight of the DSG Box is approx 95kg by the way of which the special gear oil weighs 5.3kgs!!, I know this because I have completed a competitive analysis and tested the gearbox then taken one apart to inspect it's internals. We had no problems with it while it was tested at the proving ground. Anyway, that’s not to say that the O2E or O2M box's can't handle more torque as anybody knows, with the current crop of conversions from HGP-Turbo, EIP, HPA, Rothe etc. HGP also produce a Single-Turbo conversion for the DSG with 400ps and 515nm of torque, so it kind of puts to bed he rumor that the box is the "weak" point of the car. The limiting factor of the box is not the gears or clutch packs but the programming of TCM (transmission control module). The DSG TCM is programmed such that, if the input shaft sees more than a certain amount of torque (350 Nm) it tells the ECU to dial down on the engine power. I assume this has been done by VW engineers to prolong the life of the box and preserve clutch packs and brake bands, as I have heard that the clutch packs are designed to last the life of the car without out ever needing to be changed... this statement comes from an article written in ATZ/MZT Engineering magazine (from Germany) in March 2004 by Dr. Frank Günter, Director of VW Program Management for BorgWarner Transmission Systems, who helped develop the gearbox. Ok, back on track, a certain tuning company built at VW’s request a few single turbo R32 DSG’s for VW to stress test their DSG’s at Ehra-Lessien proving grounds and VW have logged at full throttle 5500rpm launches with no reported issues. I believe this to be single turbo engines pushing out approx 400ps similar to HGP’s 400PS conversion. The TCM’s were modified to increase the standard launch control rpm’s from 3500 to 5500 to further enhance acceleration times, and test the transmissions durability. They also were able to reprogramme the oil pressure regulators of the clutch packs (hydralic controls & pumps)to simulate higher clamping loads and hence enable the clutch packs to compress further to enable them to handle more torque without slipping. It should also be noted that the clutch packs are sprayed with oil to lubricate and to help dissipate heat during certain driving conditions. The probable reason why AMD and other tuning companies in the UK have limited torque increases on R32 and 3.2 TT's conversions is that have not yet been brave enough to dig into the gearbox internals and modify the TCM's to increase the oil pressure in the box and therefore increase it's torque rating. So it's not that it can't be done, you just have to know what you're doing. HPG Tuning in Germany can carry out this modification, and do for there 400Ps conversion, Wendland MotorenTecknik produce engines conversions for DSG equipped vehilces up to 310ps/360Nm torque. [/ QUOTE ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shark_90 Posted May 6, 2007 Report Share Posted May 6, 2007 [ QUOTE ] Jim at JKM spent over 2 hours remapping my car to a Revo Stage1. He used the Dyno rolling road and took it out on the road with a laptop. He also Dyno'd it again about a month later and I know that if I have any problems he'll be there willingly to help all he can. I'm (I mean "I was") a virgin when it comes to modding and remapping, and so I need to feel confident - Please be gentle with me . [/ QUOTE ] Exactly my point Robin - it sounds like you got a "proper" remap, and good service too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemod Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 [ QUOTE ] Exactly my point Robin - it sounds like you got a "proper" remap, and good service too [/ QUOTE ] Unfortunatly there are no Superchips dealers in Northern Ireland that do a rolling road before and after test. However if I had been in Engalnd I would have gone to this day out where I think you will find that all the guys that day were very happy with their proper remaps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shark_90 Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 A rolling road before and after proves the gains, nothing more. The rolling road needs to be used to change the characteristics of the map, to create a smooth torque curve, to cater for the customer's wants (ie. a low-end torque surge, or a more solid push higher up). You GTi lot are so easy to piss off aren't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemod Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petsy Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 [ QUOTE ] You GTi lot are so easy to piss off aren't you? [/ QUOTE ] hmm, according to your sig you own a 2000 Golf GTi 1.8T ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shark_90 Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 Yep, that's right. I've hardly ever posted in the GTi forum before having had an A4 and to be honest I might not bother doing so again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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