10bellys Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 With the cost of petrol showing no signs of going down I was wanting some feedback on lpg conversions I have a 97 S8 with 162k and do about 22k miles p.a. Is the engine too long in the tooth, how much boot space do you loose and what sort of installation cost. Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duffy3074 Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 I'm in the middle of doing this for the second time to my S8, I'm having a 73 litre toroidal tank fitted in the spare wheel well with a good system (8 injectors, good fully programmable ECU etc)that's flexible enough to allow petrol to be used at the top end to ensure performance or to run on LPG the whole time. Costs...£2.7K for this but it's a top notch system that doesn't restrict the performance of the car. It'll pay for itself in 19 months on the mileage I do and I typically keep cars for 4 years so it's a no brainer financially. The previous one was £2.3K and was a 80 litre cylinder at the back of the boot, it compromised the boot space too much for my tastes for family holidays albeit on an everyday basis was probably fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alera Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 I have a mate whos into his lpg had it on a few cars currently a range rover..... From what I have been told minimum drop in power is around 10% on lpg but it really depends on how many miles the engine has done. He said once they have done some miles and the engines really worn in the performance can go down a fair bit. If you do lots of miles and its going to be financially viable plus you can accept the drop in performance its obviously worth doing. I can see why its a good option for some people, especially when you hear they are spending £600+ a month on the precious juice... There have been some discussions on here before about this. The lpg fans always seem to say the performance is the same but its not what I have been told particuarly on older vehicles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostKiwi Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 I have a Range Rover Classic 3.9EFI on lpg and would really recommend it to anyone. It does 15mpg on petrol, 13mpg on the Barbecue juice... but as barbecue juice is so cheap its effectively 32mpg or so....(and thats at 70++ on the motorway where the aerodynamics (what aerodynamics!!!?) have a huge impact on economy. It will still do 100mph when asked though with minimal appreciable difference in performance. And bear in mind this system is ancient and venturi based (as opposed to the later injector based ones)and has been totally abused off road. I looked at doing the A8 too but in the end decided not to as I'm using the Rangie more than the A8 so it would take way too long to recoup the cost. The price I got for a Romano system with intelligent programmable ECU, 8 injectors and tyre sized toroidal tank for the A8 was just shy 2k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghemmings Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 I've been running mine on LPG now for over 2 years with a multi-point tartarini system (a bit old hat now). I wouldn't have a petrol car without LPG (this is my fourth LPG car) and when set up right, you seriously can't tell the difference. If I switch my car to petrol and boot it, I can't feel any loss in power to when booting it on LPG, but the newer multi-point systems can seamlessly switch to petrol when you take the revs high enough, then back to gas when driving normally. LPG has a lot higher octane rating of about 117, so burns very quickly, but you need a good powerfull spark to ignite it. Luckily, the 8's have separate coil-on-plug packs, so always a good spark. I do 25k per year and pay 44p per litre for LPG, making my 4.2 about 45mpg equivalent (I get 18mpg on LPG). I highly recommend converting it. The sooner you do it, the sooner you start to benefit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alantong Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 I have LPG on my 2003 (D3) 4.2. It was fitted by the previous owner at a cost of 2.5K. The tank is in the boot, but even so its still a huge boot. With a good modern system you will hardly notice the drop in performance. You will do a couple of MPG less on LPG as it has less energy for a given volume. I get about 24mpg on petrol and 21 / 22 on LPG. Where I live LPG costs about 54p rather than 105p for unleaded. In other words it LPG fuel costs about 11p per mile and unleaded costs 20p per mile. At a saving of 9p per mile you will need to do around 28,000 miles to break even. I guess a LPG converted car is worth more when you sell it, but not much - perhaps that reduces the break even point a bit. LPG does reduce polution as it burns cleanly (so you can get your car exempted from the London congestion charge) but does little for C02 / greenhouse gas emissions. Alan BTW Where do you get LPG at 44p per litre? According to petrolprices.com the cheapest in the UK is 47p and the most expensive is 60p. (The most expensive diesel is now 120p!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostKiwi Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 [ QUOTE ] LPG does reduce polution as it burns cleanly (so you can get your car exempted from the London congestion charge) but does little for C02 / greenhouse gas emissions. Alan BTW Where do you get LPG at 44p per litre? According to petrolprices.com the cheapest in the UK is 47p and the most expensive is 60p. (The most expensive diesel is now 120p!) [/ QUOTE ] From what I read LPG is 20% less CO2 than diesel, 1/6th the NOx and 1/120th the particulates... I think thats an overwhelming good environmental reason to convert to LPG! As for cheap LPG, the cheapest in the country is apparently Holystone filling station in Newcastle on Tyne at 39.9p/l... Tell me where you are and I'll see what my source says for you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alantong Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 >Tell me where you are and I'll see what my source says for you... I live near Buntingford, Hertfordshire and work in St Neots, Cambs. Sometime hack up to work on the A1 joining at Baldock, other times go up the A10 towards cambridge. Alan Whilst its a case of "every little helps" with C02 reductions we have to keep it in perspective. A 4.2L A8 running on LPG emits about as much C02 as two mini coopers.... I guess none of us bought an A8 for its green credentials anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostKiwi Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 Unfortunately the website I use (http://www.go-autogas.com/) doesn't have the ability to search on small towns very well so I searched Hertfordshire and got these as the cheapest 5... 46.9p / Litre MRH Hertford, Hertfordshire 46.9p / Litre Tesco Hatfield Filling Station Hatfield, Hertfordshire 47.0p / Litre Howe Engineering Nr Buntingford, Hertfordshire 47.9p / Litre Shell Sceptre Watford, Hertfordshire 48.7p / Litre Herts Autogas Knebworth, Hertfordshire Cambridgeshire gave: 51.9p / Litre Shell Burton Bros Huntingdon, Cambridgeshire 50.0p / Litre Alans Taxis Ely, Cambridgeshire 49.9p / Litre Shell Northmead Peterborough, Cambridgeshire 49.9p / Litre Shell Fenstanton Fenstanton, Cambridgeshire 47.0p / Litre CPS Fuels , Cambridgeshire Any use to you? You're right about the CO2 and A8's - we certainly didn't buy an A8 to be eco-friendly in that respect. That said the A8 is probably one of thebetter cars for recycling... being made from aluminium it will not corrode as quickly as steel cars, is easy to recycle, and accident damage aside should be able to be kept running for very very many years. And as long as there are people like IT_S8 around to supply the bits there is no reason why they shouldn't be reasonable cost to run either. The focus on CO2 irks me somewhat when it comes to the greenies - the fuel CO2 output is only a very small part of the equation. In general more CO2 is produced from the manufacture and shipping of the car than it will ever produce in its lifetime (and aluminium is particularly bad in this respect as it uses vast amounts of electricity to smelt the ore - having said that there are some smelters (such as Tiwai Point in NZ)powered solely by hydro electric power therefore have near enough zero CO2 from that aspect of the cars production). The likes of the Toyota Pious whilst being low impact on the environment when being driven are very poor environmentally in other aspects such as battery manufacture and disposal, coupled with comparatively short battery life compared to internal combustion engines... Its a real pity there is no standard measure for lifetime eco-friendliness of a vehicle. I suspect there would probably be a few surprises in there!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon magnifique Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 My overriding worry about LPG is that sooner or later the government will decide it's no longer exempt from normal fuel duty, and in one fell swoop your advantage (and £1500 investment) is gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alantong Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 [ QUOTE ] Unfortunately the website I use (http://www.go-autogas.com/) doesn't have the ability to search on small towns very well so I searched Hertfordshire and got these as the cheapest 5... 46.9p / Litre MRH Hertford, Hertfordshire 46.9p / Litre Tesco Hatfield Filling Station Hatfield, Hertfordshire 47.0p / Litre Howe Engineering Nr Buntingford, Hertfordshire 47.9p / Litre Shell Sceptre Watford, Hertfordshire 48.7p / Litre Herts Autogas Knebworth, Hertfordshire Cambridgeshire gave: 51.9p / Litre Shell Burton Bros Huntingdon, Cambridgeshire 50.0p / Litre Alans Taxis Ely, Cambridgeshire 49.9p / Litre Shell Northmead Peterborough, Cambridgeshire 49.9p / Litre Shell Fenstanton Fenstanton, Cambridgeshire 47.0p / Litre CPS Fuels , Cambridgeshire Any use to you? [/ QUOTE ] Thanks for this - the Howe Engineering one is cheap and local to my home so thats great. Any chance of a postcode search on PE19 8YP which is my work postcode? I agree with your comments about CO2 emissions - unless you can have a birth to death figure to include manufacture, shipping, use and dismantling then the figures given for the emmisions per mile / km are only one part of the story. I can not exactly claim to be green when it comes to - in fact the A8 is probably has the lowest emissions of the 4 vehicles in our household! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostKiwi Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 The only one it pulled up for PE19 was: 51.9p / Litre Shell Buckden PE19 5XJ Not much help I'm afraid..... Have to admit I'm not overly 'green' either... 2 V8s, and a V6 between 2 of us.... Last chance before we all go electric really... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alera Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 Last chance before we all go electric really... [ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] Absolutely. The way its going with them now targeting road tax congestion charge on Londons roads etc (soon to be Manchester, Birmmingham and beyond) I can really see a time in the not too distant future when all but the real prestiege and performance brands are diesel / hybrid etc.... And Merc, Audi and Bmw will definately be in the diesel camp at the very least. The big petrol engines have not got long now for sure, we are not far off their death in europe. Maybe 5 years if we are lucky I am just going to enjoy it whilst I can.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser647 Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 [ QUOTE ] The only one it pulled up for PE19 was: 51.9p / Litre Shell Buckden PE19 5XJ Not much help I'm afraid..... Have to admit I'm not overly 'green' either... 2 V8s, and a V6 between 2 of us.... Last chance before we all go electric really... [/ QUOTE ] Buckden? You'll just have to go up to the next junction from St Neots on the A1! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alantong Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 [ QUOTE ] Last chance before we all go electric really... [/ QUOTE ] As long as all the electric cars are like the Tesla http://www.teslamotors.com/ (Sorry, really off topic now!) Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alantong Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 [ QUOTE ] Unfortunately the website I use (http://www.go-autogas.com/) doesn't have the ability to search on small towns very well so I searched Hertfordshire and got these as the cheapest 5... 46.9p / Litre MRH Hertford, Hertfordshire 46.9p / Litre Tesco Hatfield Filling Station Hatfield, Hertfordshire 47.0p / Litre Howe Engineering Nr Buntingford, Hertfordshire 47.9p / Litre Shell Sceptre Watford, Hertfordshire 48.7p / Litre Herts Autogas Knebworth, Hertfordshire [/ QUOTE ] Hi, Have you found the go-autogas site to be upto date with prices. I know its only a few quid to subscribe but the lowest prices on the homepage are all about a month old. As an example I tried Howe Engineering on the day you looked this up and found that their price was 54p rather than 47p. Thanks Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figure11 Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Hi, I use the site and have their road atlas to find LPG on my travels. I think that some of their pricing is way out of date. However, it regularly reports on my home LPG stations and the prices seem spot on. If you have a Calor Gas depot near you, check it out. It is the cheapest source near me and it wasn't on the site!. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostKiwi Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 So far the prices they have listed have been OK in my experience - but then I only use a few stations as I have regular routes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gadgeteer Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Hi 10bellys, I've often thought about doing this but never quite dared to. My opinion is that it would actually de-value the car (check out used prices) and maybe be a bit problematic if anything ever goes wrong. If you take up the carpet you'll see that the boot floor is a big plastic insert. My idea was to remove that and it should give a great big square space to put two normal LPG cylinders side-by-side rather than a smaller toroidal one. Just needs a simple frame to carry them which should be easy enough to fabricate. Loose the spare wheel and keep the big boot space - just make sure you have RAC or AA. As you said, with the way fuel prices are going I may have to think about it again soon - just waiting for my warranty to run out first! Cheers Gadgeteer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figure11 Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Hey, Gadgeteer, Long time no post! Hope your well. I am a big fan of LPG. I know that over the last 18K I have saved over £1500 since June. The Dyno run I did showed no major difference in power output http://www.tyresmoke.net/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post1266169 I just get a bit grunpy when I have to pay 56p per litre on the motorways! Currently it's costing me 14-17ppm (Light right foot - Heavy right foot) as opposed to 23-27ppm. I still have to pay off the initial installation costs. Should be recovered by May. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonbrown Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 I went down the LPG route in July 06 when I bought my 2000 2.8 sport. I had it fitted with a Peecom system which isnt as reliable as the Prinz System I had in my previous A6.You have to change the filter every year, but at least yuo can override the kick over to gas and do it yourself if its a bit slow having just stopped. The Prinz sytem is instant when hot whereas the Pee com can take up to a minute or two even if hot and have stopped. That said returning an average of 28 on gas is the equivalent of 56-60 on petrol so its still advantageous. Thats Golf Diesel territory.. Last year I was picking gas up from CountryWide for 32p/litre ..now its 50 ..it scandalous beraing in mind as a nation we export the stuff to holland for 4p/litre in bulk. If you are a retailer and you can shift more than 100,000 l/month you can buy it at 4p/litre in bulk so the companies flogging it are greedier than Gordon Brown and we are essentially being stiffed. Theres a few gas outlets down here in bristol that are thinking of joining forces keeping the current infrastructure in place and buying cheaper and flogging at the circe 30p/litre mark so im led to believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostKiwi Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Have to admit the price of LPG is certainly very variable. Does anyone know how much tax the government takes on LPG for road usage (if any)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figure11 Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 From an LPG site Fuel duty The Government has made sweeping cuts in LPG fuel duty, thanks to its environmental benefits. In 2001, duty on LPG was slashed by 40% to 4.5p per litre and was frozen at this level until December 2006. The Chancellor is committed to supporting LPG autogas in the long term, and to give consumers confidence announces in the Budget each year the difference that will apply in the level of duty between petrol/diesel and LPG autogas for the following three years. The current commitment is that the duty differential will not reduce by more than 1p per liter per year and we can therefore expect the price of LPG autogas at the pumps to continue at around half that of petrol and diesel for the foreseeable future. From HMRC site What is the Government’s policy on road fuel gas? Excise duty is due on gas for use as road fuel. The most common forms of road fuel gas are liquefied petroleum gas (LPG), and compressed natural gas. Following a consultation on how best to ensure that future support for road fuel gases continues to reflect environmental and other policy objectives, the 2003 Pre-Budget Report announced that the duty incentive for LPG would be decreased over time to a level more commensurate with its environmental benefits, and that the incentive relative to the main road fuels for natural gas would be maintained at its current level until 2007. To reflect the relative environmental benefits of the fuel more accurately Budget 2006 announced the duty differential between LPG and main road fuels will be reduced by the equivalent of 1 penny per liter each year to 2008-09 and that the duty differential between Natural Gas rates and main duty rates will be maintained each year until 2008-09. The rate of duty for LPG increased to 12.21 pence per kilogram and for natural gas to 10.81 pence per kilogram on 7 December 2006. This decision is in line with the established alternative fuels framework. Public Notice 76 Excise Duty on Gas for use as Fuel in Road Vehicles provides further, detailed information. web page And that's all I can find without spending money or visiting Exeter!!! So, I'm probably wrong but_ ‘To reflect the relative environmental benefits of the fuel more accurately Budget 2006 announced the duty differential between LPG and main road fuels will be reduced by the equivalent of 1 penny per litre each year to 2008-09’. ’On 7 December 2006 The rate of duty for LPG increased to 12.21 pence per kilogram’. Ergo if we had a penny on the duty rate @ budget 07 we are currently paying 13.21ppKg. 1 kg of LPG = 47.0 cubic feet of natural gas @ At 86°F (30°C) and as supplied from the pump you get .543Kg per liter. Therefore (and this is probably flawed as I am an Englan riter not a sums worker out!) 13.21 ppKg or 7.12ppLtr. Add Vat to that I suppose, say 52p ppLtr – 7.12 = 44.88p @17.5% = 6.67p. So 52ppLtr – 7.12 – 6.67 = 38.21 for the oil companies? I am probably wrong, but if the say there are only making a penny per liter on LPG……………….. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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