Speeding- consequences. Help!

[cornelious03]

Hi All- Just joined yesterday because I finally have something to add. Well I say add but I'm rather hoping to take some advice off someone/ anyone (And how many times has that been said by a newby I wonder?).

Anyway lets get down to business- I'm 25, have been driving a car since 17 (and 1 month!) and driving on the road since 16 (moped). I have had a few points in my time, I think about 4 lots of 3 pointers (3 x SP30's and 1 x TS10).

I had 6 at one point but otherwise only had 3 on it at a time.

Now I have 3, but was pulled over last week for doing 70 in a 50 (unmarked black Skoda VRS). It was all on camera so I had/have no intention of disputing it. So that's 6, well, by the end of the month it will be anyway.....

Now the nasty part. I was travelling on a dual carriageway in my Transit and got miffed when some old guy doing 41mph decided to overtake another old guy doing 40. When I finally got past I bombed it down a long dead straight hill about 1/4 mile long that is virtually a mirror image of the hill the other side (typical run up scenario, mixed with a bit of road rage:rolleyes:).

I went over a marker at the top of the hill and then a marker at the bottom- I was still accelerating at the top of the hill. When I reached the bottom I slowed because I could see a car pulled into the verge (no hard shoulder remember) right at the top of the hill, on the other side. It was obviously facing in the direction of the traffic (same as me) and started to pull out.

At this point i could make out that it was silver ... and green and blue.

Sure enough I went passed him doing 65, he followed for a mile or so and pulled me into the next layby. At which point I'm just a little concerned...

When I get in the back of the car first thing I notice is there are two of them (bugger!), second I notice his little Speed = Distance / Time calculator saying 98.4mph . Now I am ****ting it a bit as you can imagine.

Sure enough that was what he was suggesting my average speed was.

After the usual routine rubbish (licence check etc), he informed me that I would be receiving a letter shortly with a court date.

I pleaded (no really, I can seriously suck up when i need to) to no avail.

I never once admitted that I was doing that speed (i queried it from the moment i got into the car) and the only thing I actually confessed was that I was not aware that my vehicle was only allowed to do 60mph on dual carriageways.

My question is can a manual type system like this, used from between 1/4-1/2 mile in front of me (with the cops looking out the rear window between the seats) actually be used to prove my guilt. Without doubt it must be possible to get the time between the 2 points incorrect.

The reason I question it is that the van is limited to 100mph (on sat nav too) and I was accelerating all the way down the hill. How on earth can my average between the 2 points be 98.4??

For this reason I am seriously considering pleading not guilty and before I seek expensive legal advice I wanted to see if anyone here had been in a similar situation.

I also wondered what the likely consequence would be if I just pleaded guilty? I live 5 miles from the nearest town, I drive for a living and will be on the doll if they ban me- end of story (unless someone can bring a job to me??). That aside they have the right to give me a further 6 points and a hefty fine (which will make 12:().

Then what?

Anyway anyones thoughts would be greatly appreciated- apologies for the detail.....

(Note to speed limit lovers- If you want to lecture me then don't waste your time, as far as I'm concerned current speed limits on Dual carriageways and Motorways are ridiculous and have been ever since the famous cobra incident. During busy times I can understand it- there should be peak traffic speed limits (displayed in matrix's), but on a deserted dead straight peace of road?? )

[mb]

Welcome to TSN !

First of all wait for the summons - you never know it might not come but almost certainly will (there is a school of thought that suggests waiting for a rec del summons or similar as not all unanswered summonses are followed up) but personally I would deal with it at the time if I was hoping for some leniency.

Once you know what you are accused of then either get a good lawyer (call the court & ask for a list of those that do motoring cases & talk to a couple). Then get a letter from boss explaining that you will lose your job if you are banned for a long period of time - the court will not really care if it only affects you so you need to explain how the ban will affect others, your charity work etc.

You will need to show you have repented so do some sort of safety course (I think ROSPA will still have you on 3 points but not on 6)

The court will then be able to decide to let you have 6 points + large fine and/or a short ban. Best job would be month for totting up so you get a clean licence back rather than very short ban or 3 years on 12 points (unless the 1st 3 come off soon)

I would def get a solicitor though as whilst you should be OK without one they will ask a lot better than you can & if you have bothered getting a solicitor it shows how important it is for you.

I wouldn't bother challenging it as they will say they have been trained in the use of VASCAR which the Home Office approved but didn't design it so you will find it just about impossible to ask any meaningful questions, magistrates aren't experts so tend to believe the police & then they will just roll the video evidence in court (in court speed sounds like mass murder anyway so your video will look like an outtake from the Blues Brothers)

Good luck - it will be a horrible few months waiting for "the letter"

[Chav]

havent seen one of those manual measurement systems. is there an auto trigger when your van crossed the line which started their little stopwatch? or did they literally push a button to start and one to stop? sounds ridiculously inaccurate if thats the case - how can they see 1/8 mile ahead to within a couple of metres?

[cornelious03]

Thanks very much for the advice mb- superquick too, that's better service than my bank!

Couple of things i feel i should add. Boss doesn't know and I would like it to stay that way (the police said they have no intention of speaking to them because I told them they tell us to take it easy and we have a drivers hand book etc- speeding is a big no no). If my work found out then they might just get rid of me anyway... Basically I need to sort it myself.

Also I find it hard to believe that they would rather put someone out of work (and on the doll), nulling any fine they put in place. The fact that I live with my parents (still recovering from uni!) and they are mostly away (I house sit) would back me up I would have thought. No job, no car, no nothing... It doesn't seem very logical to me.

I am also on a plumbing course which i pay for monthly so it would basically destroy my life. They may say that I should have thought of that but the punishment doesn't seem to fit the crime- it's not like I'm carrying a knife or anything and what the hell happens to people who do that- sorry off subject and way too political.

Finding people who depend on me would be difficult- it is something I have worked hard to avoid!

The other thing is there is no camera evidence- that's my whole point only a bloke (or 2) saying he pushed the button then.. and ... then. A small error in timing would account for a large difference in the speed....

Solicitor is a defo- my dad has a beauty but I'm not sure if he has dealt with this sort of thing (bit trivial really) but I'll have a word. Otherwise I'll just look for a specialist.

Thanks again mb.

[cornelious03]

havent seen one of those manual measurement systems. is there an auto trigger when your van crossed the line which started their little stopwatch? or did they literally push a button to start and one to stop? sounds ridiculously inaccurate if thats the case - how can they see 1/8 mile ahead to within a couple of metres?

Cheers for the reply Chav.

From what I understand it is 100% manual and they say they "give you the benefit of the doubt". Which means I was actually going faster than that and that is plain impossible!

The markers they used in this instance were just the white forward arrows you normally get in built up areas (not the usual white squares or circles).

But like you say from that distance how can it stand up in court......

[jon79f]

Hi All- Just joined yesterday because I finally have something to add. Well I say add but I'm rather hoping to take some advice off someone/ anyone (And how many times has that been said by a newby I wonder?).

Anyway lets get down to business- I'm 25, have been driving a car since 17 (and 1 month!) and driving on the road since 16 (moped). I have had a few points in my time, I think about 4 lots of 3 pointers (3 x SP30's and 1 x TS10).

I had 6 at one point but otherwise only had 3 on it at a time.

Now I have 3, but was pulled over last week for doing 70 in a 50 (unmarked black Skoda VRS). It was all on camera so I had/have no intention of disputing it. So that's 6, well, by the end of the month it will be anyway.....

Now the nasty part. I was travelling on a dual carriageway in my Transit and got miffed when some old guy doing 41mph decided to overtake another old guy doing 40. When I finally got past I bombed it down a long dead straight hill about 1/4 mile long that is virtually a mirror image of the hill the other side (typical run up scenario, mixed with a bit of road rage:rolleyes:).

I went over a marker at the top of the hill and then a marker at the bottom- I was still accelerating at the top of the hill. When I reached the bottom I slowed because I could see a car pulled into the verge (no hard shoulder remember) right at the top of the hill, on the other side. It was obviously facing in the direction of the traffic (same as me) and started to pull out.

At this point i could make out that it was silver ... and green and blue.

Sure enough I went passed him doing 65, he followed for a mile or so and pulled me into the next layby. At which point I'm just a little concerned...

When I get in the back of the car first thing I notice is there are two of them (bugger!), second I notice his little Speed = Distance / Time calculator saying 98.4mph . Now I am ****ting it a bit as you can imagine.

Sure enough that was what he was suggesting my average speed was.

After the usual routine rubbish (licence check etc), he informed me that I would be receiving a letter shortly with a court date.

I pleaded (no really, I can seriously suck up when i need to) to no avail.

I never once admitted that I was doing that speed (i queried it from the moment i got into the car) and the only thing I actually confessed was that I was not aware that my vehicle was only allowed to do 60mph on dual carriageways.

My question is can a manual type system like this, used from between 1/4-1/2 mile in front of me (with the cops looking out the rear window between the seats) actually be used to prove my guilt. Without doubt it must be possible to get the time between the 2 points incorrect.

The reason I question it is that the van is limited to 100mph (on sat nav too) and I was accelerating all the way down the hill. How on earth can my average between the 2 points be 98.4??

For this reason I am seriously considering pleading not guilty and before I seek expensive legal advice I wanted to see if anyone here had been in a similar situation.

I also wondered what the likely consequence would be if I just pleaded guilty? I live 5 miles from the nearest town, I drive for a living and will be on the doll if they ban me- end of story (unless someone can bring a job to me??). That aside they have the right to give me a further 6 points and a hefty fine (which will make 12:().

Then what?

Anyway anyones thoughts would be greatly appreciated- apologies for the detail.....

(Note to speed limit lovers- If you want to lecture me then don't waste your time, as far as I'm concerned current speed limits on Dual carriageways and Motorways are ridiculous and have been ever since the famous cobra incident. During busy times I can understand it- there should be peak traffic speed limits (displayed in matrix's), but on a deserted dead straight peace of road?? )

I think some time on the sideline without a licence might make you realise having one brings with it some responsibility.

I agree that some speed limits are too severe, however thems the rules, and if you break em you know the consequences. Why would you take the risk when you drive for a living?

[jpullen]

I sympathise with your dilemma, I wouldn't like to comment on your speed but can explain how you were 'spotted'.

Generally the County forces use VASCAR and we use Police Pilot but both do the same thing and measure your speed by knowing two other variables i.e distance and time. If you pick any mark on a road which can be a white painted square, shadow, any line marking or in fact anything that doesn't move and then time a vehicle between that and another similar mark and you know the distance then it will give you a speed. On motorways you will often see white squares painted on the carriageway way followed by another set, look around you and you might see a parked car just waiting. We know the distance so sit and time vehicles travelling between them.

Equally this can be done on the follow, e.g subject vehicle goes across road marking, time starts, Police vehicle does the same, distance starts. Next mark subject vehicle time stops and then police vehicle stops distance at the same position. Police vehicle does not need to be travelling at the same speed but does need to follow in the subjects footprint to maintain the correct distance.

To give you a sneaky example. marks are laid down each side of a motorway junction. Distance is known. Police vehicle peels off and operator looks back to seek a likely 'client' to cross the first mark. Police vehicle then rejoins motorway and stops time as subject crosses second mark.

Now you might think it's all prety sneaky, but once the offence is complete I always stop the subject, who is given a chance to state their case, and on occasions they don't get a summons......not something you get with a camera and your observation levels certainly get better!

Hope this helps.

[Calm Chris]

Nice posts from some newbies. Knowledge is good !

I'd imagine your get 3 points, doing so means that you will have to tell the boss at some time. Failure would mean the risk of being uninsured in the firms vehicle (failure to disclose points).

Either way you will have to come clean when the points arrive- so start softening the Governor up and make yourself indispensable.

[cornelious03]

Nice posts from some newbies. Knowledge is good !

I'd imagine your get 3 points, doing so means that you will have to tell the boss at some time. Failure would mean the risk of being uninsured in the firms vehicle (failure to disclose points).

Either way you will have to come clean when the points arrive- so start softening the Governor up and make yourself indispensable.

Not what I wanted to hear, but now you come to mention it I should have guessed as much. Well I have a while before I get the actual points anyhow..... TBH I have no real idea of their reation but for the purposes of the court- I will be fired!!!

Thanks Chri5

[scooby_simon]

Not what I wanted to hear, but now you come to mention it I should have guessed as much. Well I have a while before I get the actual points anyhow..... TBH I have no real idea of their reation but for the purposes of the court- I will be fired!!!

Thanks Chri5

I've been caught doing more than 30 over the limit; yes, very bad boy...

Expect a big fine; BUT if you can get your boss to write to court stating that you will be dismissed of you loose your ability to drive, court should look to fineing you, but will (hopefully) not ban you unless you have a long history of speeding. When I got doen, I did not have any points, but at the time I had NO points.

Wait for the summons, find good representation, try and get work to write the letter and cross fingers.

Do not drive to court.

Learn the lesson......

[cornelious03]

I sympathise with your dilemma, I wouldn't like to comment on your speed but can explain how you were 'spotted'.

Generally the County forces use VASCAR and we use Police Pilot but both do the same thing and measure your speed by knowing two other variables i.e distance and time. If you pick any mark on a road which can be a white painted square, shadow, any line marking or in fact anything that doesn't move and then time a vehicle between that and another similar mark and you know the distance then it will give you a speed. On motorways you will often see white squares painted on the carriageway way followed by another set, look around you and you might see a parked car just waiting. We know the distance so sit and time vehicles travelling between them.

Equally this can be done on the follow, e.g subject vehicle goes across road marking, time starts, Police vehicle does the same, distance starts. Next mark subject vehicle time stops and then police vehicle stops distance at the same position. Police vehicle does not need to be travelling at the same speed but does need to follow in the subjects footprint to maintain the correct distance.

To give you a sneaky example. marks are laid down each side of a motorway junction. Distance is known. Police vehicle peels off and operator looks back to seek a likely 'client' to cross the first mark. Police vehicle then rejoins motorway and stops time as subject crosses second mark.

Now you might think it's all prety sneaky, but once the offence is complete I always stop the subject, who is given a chance to state their case, and on occasions they don't get a summons......not something you get with a camera and your observation levels certainly get better!

Hope this helps.

Thanks for that. Only thing I question is the fact that he was so far in front of me on the opposing hill. If it were a flat piece of road and he were at that distance he would not even have seen me go over anything (only that I was coming towards him). It was only the hill that gave him more of an overhead view. I know I'm clutching at straws but as well as knowing I was speeding, I genuinely believe the figure to be a good 10mph too high! That 10mph would most definately make the difference between me keeping my licence and not.

Anyway I think I'm going to speak to a solicitor and if he thinks I'm wasting my time then I need to go down the repent route. Anyone know if i can take the ROSPA thing with 3 points (and at least 6 pending- can i get away with not mentioning that?).

Also how does this totting up business work? I could actually take a whole month off work if I asked very nicely....maybe...

Thoughts?

[Luke]

This happened to me twice, once on the A1 at Letchworth. Shadow from 1 bridge to shadow on another, set distance, start stopwatch, Bingo, blues and twos your nicked!! 101mph 6 points, fine, long time ago. Second one was a police car following behind, average speed over set distance (between certain points) on a dual road. 100 odd mph again. 6 points, BIG fine. You are made to fill out a form saying how much you earn and what you've got left, I'm not joking!! You could ask the police for proof all of the equipment was calibrated. The speed does seem high for an average of a vehicle that can only do a 100mph. In court, its best to go. Say that you'll loose your job and have to put your house up for sale, say that you've learnt your lesson and will never ever do it again. Say that your a hard working, good bloke and you dont want to have to claim benefits, in other words CREEP LIKE FECK!! Good luck

[peterb]

I'm afraid that you will have no success in attempting to discredit the evidence from Vascar, however inaccurate it may sound.

You say that your van is limited to 100 - do you mean that is the manufacturer's quoted max speed? You say that you've checked this with Sat Nav .... but, you were travelling downhill - not even an engine governor can prevent the set speed being exceeded when travelling down hill.

I'm afraid that you will have to beg for leniency in court, as others have said, and, yes, a good lawyer can do this better than you can.

Also, as has already been stated, you must ensure that the insurers are aware of any convictions/points. I believe that the question in the proposal (and renewal) form is often phrased to include 'any pending prosecutions'. So, you must confess to your boss, sooner, rather than later. Also, I suspect that your boss' support in court may be essential in order to retain your licence.

You could always come over here (Philippines) where there are no set speed limits, anywhere. Having said that, the road conditions are not really conducive to travelling quickly. I tend to cruise between 50 and 60, and have only touched 100 once in 7 months.

Oh, the other point ... I believe that corroborating evidence from 2 officers, even without any equipment, can still, technically, be used in court.

Edited July 10, 2008 by peterb

[cornelious03]

I think some time on the sideline without a licence might make you realise having one brings with it some responsibility.

I agree that some speed limits are too severe, however thems the rules, and if you break em you know the consequences. Why would you take the risk when you drive for a living?

All agreed but it is a very easy thing to say in hindsight. If I told you what I have managed to get away with driving like in the past (especially as a teen) then I'm sure you would be most put out.

Point is I thought I could get away with it is all. Since this 'incident' I haven't been over the limit once (it is very strange).

You are quite right about the responsibility side of things but in all honesty none of this will change my attitude- I will still speed but I'll just be more aware of how and where to get away with it. The only responsibility i will gain is that of not getting caught- a big responsibility. I am goading you a little but there is some truth in what I'm saying...

[cornelious03]

This happened to me twice, once on the A1 at Letchworth. Shadow from 1 bridge to shadow on another, set distance, start stopwatch, Bingo, blues and twos your nicked!! 101mph 6 points, fine, long time ago. Second one was a police car following behind, average speed over set distance (between certain points) on a dual road. 100 odd mph again. 6 points, BIG fine. You are made to fill out a form saying how much you earn and what you've got left, I'm not joking!! You could ask the police for proof all of the equipment was calibrated. The speed does seem high for an average of a vehicle that can only do a 100mph. In court, its best to go. Say that you'll loose your job and have to put your house up for sale, say that you've learnt your lesson and will never ever do it again. Say that your a hard working, good bloke and you dont want to have to claim benefits, in other words CREEP LIKE FECK!! Good luck

Thanks Luke. Seems like the general consensus really. Just wondered when it happened to you and how much this 'BIG fine' was exactly?

Did you have a solicitor and how much did that cost you too?

[jpullen]

My question is can a manual type system like this, used from between 1/4-1/2 mile in front of me (with the cops looking out the rear window between the seats) actually be used to prove my guilt. Without doubt it must be possible to get the time between the 2 points incorrect.

Of course you can argue the officers couldn't possibly have obtained an accurate speed from where they positioned, but the offence is speeding, prosecution need to prove you were exceeding the speed limit not that you were doing a particular speed, I personally target roads which by their natural contours provide me with cover whilst giving excellent vision and that I know are subject to inappropriate speed. We use many different types of speed detection and for many years we have encouraged magistrates to sit in our vehicles and watch speed checks being carried out, this gives them a better understanding of how it operates and also makes them aware that 90mph can be a safe speed albeit illegal whilst 38mph can be highly dangerous.

It is also normal practice when checking between known marks to start 'time' when the mark is in front of the vehicle and to stop 'time' when the mark is visibile as it appears from the rear, this in effect increases your time and so marginally lowers your average speed.

[cornelious03]

I'm afraid that you will have no success in attempting to discredit the evidence from Vascar, however inaccurate it may sound.

You say that your van is limited to 100 - do you mean that is the manufacturer's quoted max speed? You say that you've checked this with Sat Nav .... but, you were travelling downhill - not even an engine governor can prevent the set speed being exceeded when travelling down hill.

I'm afraid that you will have to beg for leniency in court, as others have said, and, yes, a good lawyer can do this better than you can.

Also, as has already been stated, you must ensure that the insurers are aware of any convictions/points. I believe that the question in the proposal (and renewal) form is often phrased to include 'any pending prosecutions'. So, you must confess to your boss, sooner, rather than later. Also, I suspect that your boss' support in court may be essential in order to retain your licence.

You could always come over here (Philippines) where there are no set speed limits, anywhere. Having said that, the road conditions are not really conducive to travelling quickly. I tend to cruise between 50 and 60, and have only touched 100 once in 7 months.

Oh, the other point ... I believe that corroborating evidence from 2 officers, even without any equipment, can still, technically, be used in court.

Bug?*r and bug?*r again. That settles it really- I need to go get myself a free hour with a specialist solicitor and start thinking of a really pathetic suck up story (and back it up!).

[cornelious03]

Of course you can argue the officers couldn't possibly have obtained an accurate speed from where they positioned, but the offence is speeding, prosecution need to prove you were exceeding the speed limit not that you were doing a particular speed, I personally target roads which by their natural contours provide me with cover whilst giving excellent vision and that I know are subject to inappropriate speed. We use many different types of speed detection and for many years we have encouraged magistrates to sit in our vehicles and watch speed checks being carried out, this gives them a better understanding of how it operates and also makes them aware that 90mph can be a safe speed albeit illegal whilst 38mph can be highly dangerous.

It is also normal practice when checking between known marks to start 'time' when the mark is in front of the vehicle and to stop 'time' when the mark is visibile as it appears from the rear, this in effect increases your time and so marginally lowers your average speed.

I wonder if it would actually do me any good at all to point out that the speed seems too high if I intend to plead guilty to the actual charge of speeding? I know you can't say for sure but do you think it is worth trying to play it all down a bit or will they not care if it's 88 or 98mph?

[cornelious03]

Just wanted to say thanks for all the input so far. Well impressed with everyone's attitude, whatever their own opinions- much appreciated.

Have to admit that the advice so far only really confirmed my worst fears........

[jpullen]

Oh, the other point ... I believe that corroborating evidence from 2 officers, even without any equipment, can still, technically, be used in court.

Yep, quite right. If two officers form their opinion seperately but of the same vehicle at the same time that it was speeding then it was...

Interestingly speeding is one of only a few offences that must be corroborated...

cornelious03, only you know what sort of speed you were doing but if your job is at risk you must engage someone to mitigate for you, that sort of speed is dangerously near automatic disqualification but by playing down the effects of the speed (no danger, good weather, good visibility, no one put in danger etc) you might be lucky and keep your licence.

[jpullen]

I wonder if it would actually do me any good at all to point out that the speed seems too high if I intend to plead guilty to the actual charge of speeding? I know you can't say for sure but do you think it is worth trying to play it all down a bit or will they not care if it's 88 or 98mph?

I can't tell you how to plead, but if you were to plead guilty when you recieve the summons and appear in court then the officers will not attend which gives you an excellant chance to put your side forward without being shot down by two experts.

If you were to plead not guilty then everyone turns up, which is good if you want to have a real go at a glaring error but not good when they mention all the accidents and how your speed was inexcusable and examples should be made!

[Luke]

The fine was about £500-600, a week before Christmas, ouch!! The offence was earlier in the year but took a while to come to court. I had a clean licence at the time so that helped alot. I'd plead guilty and go to court. I did it without a solicitor and didn't get a ban, which was my aim. Tell your boss, dont try and hide it. He'll be alot more impressed than if he finds out another way. Ask him to write a letter saying that without your licence you are now use to him or the company. Wear a suit, shirt and tie and be humble!!

[mb]

Good advice - please do not go down the "police were wrong" route unless massively so as a) they are professionals b) the court will believe them not you & c) the court has heard it all before.

I would seriously consider alerting your boss now as you will need his/her help to have any chance of a reduced sentence. You need to give the court the option of banning you for a short period something along the lines of "For a week or so, I would just have to ask Cornelius to take an unscheduled holiday and try to cover as much of his work as we could. I am not sure how much longer than this we could cope for & progressively, this would jeopardise our ability to support our customers as they are used to.

I realise that my problems of coping and our business’s ability to compete may not be very relevant to the court in assessing Cornelius’ culpability or penalty. Nonetheless, it would be most helpful if the court could possibly take into some account the impact that a driving ban would cause to people other than Cornelius himself".

[peterb]

Again, as others have said, arguing, in court, that your speed was only 90, not 98, will not get you anywhere. Your best chances here would be to persuade the officers to reduce the reported speed before the charge is filed .... but you may already be too late for that - you don't say when this occured.

[cornelious03]

It all happened on 08/07/08 (Tuesday just gone!).

How do I get hold of the officer in question Peterb?

Edited July 11, 2008 by cornelious03