PaulW - HELP! (follow on from "Whinin" thread)

[Laffer]

PaulW your advice is sorely needed.... Please!

First off I had an ATF/Filter change done less than 6000 miles ago / 12 months ago. I do not know if they 'cleaned' the magnets though - one would hope so. At the time my gearbox was fine other than a very rare 'thump' change.

I had it done on advice found here (preventative maint, maybe get rid of the thump).

Just recently, the car stared making a metallic rasping sound on startup (not a squeal really) that lasted one or two seconds. I was concerned and as the car needed a service any way - took it into Audi stating - service the car/find the sound which I told them it is more than likely the gearbox, report, I'll give the go ahead. They did..... Slightly off topic but the car had oil seeping from the head gasket, so I approved that work to be done (new gaskets). Whilst doing that they investigated the startup noise and reported that it was some of the cam belt pulley bearings - which I again approved (the car only had the cam belt done 18,000 ago). I get the car back after parting with £2,100. The car did not make the noise at the stealers - but it was warm when I picked it up.

The next morning was cold - almost freezing, when I started the car, the rasping sound was very clear and lasted for 10 minutes. Obviously I got on to the stealer immediately, they had the car back the following day. They called and

and said that the gearbox if busted and it needs a new one.

I have seen the pan and filter (at the Audi stealer) there are metal bits left on the flat surfaces in the pan and in the grooves on the filter. The metal bits are tiny, not shards and all the magnets are full (although perhaps not as full as your picture on Audipages). I would 'guess' that the car has been driven (with the cavitation problem at atartup) for around 7 hours maximum. However the latter end of that the noise would last 10 minutes (although it is a lot colder in the UK now).

My question is this (trying to save the gearbox) is it worth having the ATF/Filter change done, see what happens (if all goes reaonably) then have it done again in a couple of weeks to remove any crap the new stuff has washed out? (which is perhaps what I should have done the first time round, and maybe worth a mention on audipages).

OR am I flogging a dead horse/buggered transmission?

BTW the stealer (after having done false works - cam belt rollers etc, not listening to me about the Gearbox & verbally accepting liability for the consequences of incorrect diagnosis / not fixing the problem) are now saying 'not our problem' (to be expected from a stealer) but have offered some assistance with the new gearbox - they will do the work (new box and fitting) for £2300 inc VAT - which is less than I have seen on here or heard of before.

Any thoughts on this matter - much appreciated.

Laffer.

[Teacake]

Sorry to hear about your gearbox woes. I'm not PaulW and can't claim to have anything like the knowledge he has, but can you tell me about the oil and filter change you had? Specifically, what parts are listed on the invoice for the work? Can you confirm that they have replaced all the parts listed on the audipages site?

[Laffer]

I do remember checking at the time. Actually they screwed up before hand as I had arranged for this to be done at the same time as a service..... they _were_ good enough to call me and say they had not oredered all the parts and that they would not be able to do it as part of the service and would have to be re-booked for the ATF/Filter change.

This was done and I did check the invoice etc afterwards. Right now (numpty me) that invoice is in the car, sitting in an Audi garage 20 miles away - so I cant check it. However I did (I think) put it on these boards..... I havent the time now to search, but I will later.

In any event, I don't even have that much trust that the parts on the invoice are the parts actually fitted AND I just beleive that they did it 'half heartedly'. Not running the engine up a few times and then checking the level/topping up as required. You know just a lack of attention to detail sort of thing.

Anyway gotta go now, I'll post later with some 'thoughts' I have been having.

Laffer.

[Teacake]

Laffer, you have a PM.

[Laffer]

Ok my thoughts on this unless I'm convinced otherwise.....

It is prolly worth having a change of oil and filter now... and then again in a month or so. If that fails (still makes noise, ultimately leading to failure) then get the box done.

Obviously I need to persuade the stealer to leave the discounted gearbox on the table while all this goes down.

Then again maybe I'm better off with the new box – problem gone......

Anyway - a few interesting points.

1). All this talk of NEW gearboxes for £3k on these boards is apparently bull. I was VERY insistent and persuasive with the stealer about this fact. The £3 to £3.5k units are "re-manufactured". Rebuilt by Audi (or more than likely ZF) but they are not NEW. A "brand new" box is over £8k. It has the same product code as the re-manufactured apart from 1 letter. Saw this with my own eyes today. The stealer pointed out that the warranty on both units is the same (new box effectively). Very interesting, must mean they have a steady supply of failures.......... read into that what you will and see the ‘Whinin’ thread.

2). My car (S8, 1998, 32v) has done 78,500 miles with full Audi verifiable history. The majority of that history is with the Stealer that I use. The cylinder head gaskets have just gone, the left bank (as you look from the front of the car) was seeping oil, the right bank was seeping coolant. So claims the dealer anyway, for all I know it _could_ have been one of those cam cover thingies for example. However this was not cheap! I took this up with both the stealer and Audi UK didn't get anything viable out of either of them - "just one of those things" hmmmm, not good enough if you ask me. A fully maintained vehicle of this 'supposed' calibre should really carry a 100,000 mile warranty regardless of age, if maintained to Audi's schedule (mine has never missed anything, and you can tell by it's history it has been very well looked after. Anything it has needed it has had).

3. The stealer got the diagnosis of the noise completely wrong (even though I stated specifically that I thought it was the gearbox) and it could be because of that I am looking at a new box now. It has also cost me between £500 - £900 parts and labour for them to fix the 'wrong' thing. Even though I asked for the jobs to be broken down to Service, Head gasket replacement and pulley replacement on separate invoices. I have one 3 page invoice all jumbled up and it is difficult to tell what is where. I should have asked for the parts back. Conveniently they have now thrown them away. I did see and hear them when I collected the car, all seemed to be running freely and silently to me (bear in mind that I am not an engineer etc and did not 'feel' them) however I have always presumed that when a bearing goes down it will either be noisy and/or wobbly. None of the pulleys/rotors I was shown were wobbly or noisy, and they ran freely, silently, and for a long time with one spin (saying to me they were in perfect health). Of course the dealer is now saying that the work needed doing, but they would wouldn’t they.

3. Verbally, I got them to agree that they would be liable for any damage that this 'unsolved' noise was causing – of course now they say they agreed to no such thing.

4. Seems I am left footing the bill for incompetence on behalf of the dealer and a more than likely Audi/ZF design fault on the gearbox.

Lessons learned:

In the future I will put my own work schedule in and make them sign it.

Just like you have to sign a service sheet - you do your own and ensure the service manger signs it.

I am seriously thinking of taking legal advice on putting clauses in there like the following:;

"failure to diagnose [the problem] accurately leading to superfluous works being carried out or parts fitted with or without my approval because of the inaccurate diagnosis will nullify any and all charges/claims relating to said misdiagnosed works and/or parts"

and just for good measure....

"failure to diagnose [the problem] that leads to further damage being done, mechanical or other wise, the servicing agent shall be entirely responsible and liable for any costs incurred to repair or make good said damage"

Lastly, I am toying with the idea of getting a device to record phone conversations. I would tell the stealer that all my phones calls are recorded and leave it at that. As long as they are aware of it, it’s perfectly admissible as evidence. Whenever meeting with them I would also state that the conversation is being recorded.

As you can prolly tell I’m pretty incensed by all this at the moment. Who wouldn’t be with a bill in one week of £4.5k just to keep a car on the road………

I have rambled enough…… l8rs

Laffer.

[Botang]

Going from memory I think PaulW has mentioned before that the gearbox oil pickup can become blocked or partialy blocked, it may be worth dropping him an email

[Teacake]

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Going from memory I think PaulW has mentioned before that the gearbox oil pickup can become blocked or partialy blocked, it may be worth dropping him an email

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That's right. There are other things that can go wrong if the oil change isn't done correctly, so the first step has got to be a look at the parts invoiced.

[paulifa1]

Hi Laffer,

The ZF A8 transmission has no design faults and is actually a very good transmission, the problem is with Audi themselves and their incredible stupidity.

Anyone who knows anything at all about them knows that you can not treat an Auto. trans. like a manual, ie. fill it with oil and expect it to last for life (assuming no leaks)

An Auto. trans. should have oil changed every 30K miles or so, 40K on the outside, ZF also advise this if you ask them, but guess what Audi say? as we already know, the oil never needs to be changed!! now think about that, an A8 properly maintained is good for over 300K and Audi don't think trans. oil will need changing, just checking for leaks once in a while!!

To give you a working example, my own old '95 A8 had a service book that stated as part of the service, oil should be changed in the transmission every 40K I bought it at 133K, and at it's demise this year at 155K (due to an accident) the transmission was faultless, smooth and silent, it had had oil changed 3 times when I got it, and I personally changed oil and filter again shortly after purchase, and guess what? with only 13K since the last change it was filthy! (filled for life my arse!) Now I've just bought a 1998 A8 sport with 99K and full audi history to replace the old car, and of course it says in the service book on this one check oil level only every 40K miles. So guess what, despite running perfectly on purchase, 300 miles later, its squeeling like a pig on startup just like yours! and I tell you what else, it really does sound like a cambelt pulley!! but considering how many of these are now failing, Audi wan**rs should know better! Also it's making a strange rumble noise when reverse is engaged, but only reverse, does yours do this??

So anyway, as the filter is on back order, I've just drained and changed the oil for now, the old oil was unbeleiveable, looked like pouring black metallic paint it was so full of particles!! This has slightly improved things already, but when the filter and bits turn up, I will be draining, dropping the sump, cleaning the sump and magnets, changing the filter and refilling. After running 50 miles, I'll be draining and re-filling again. Hopefully this will sort it out. If it does it'll get another filter change and double oil change in a few thousand miles!

I'd advise you not to despair just yet, as lots of people seem to have "saved" their boxes by doing this, so lets cross our fingers together eh !!

On a closing note, the amount of faults and appalling service we all seem to suffer on the A8/S8 is a disgrace considering they are 50K plus new!! If it wasn't for the fact it's my favourite car and I really don't like the elternatives much (BMW 7, Merc S. Lexus LS400) Audi could go to hell!

[Ska]

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If it wasn't for the fact it's my favourite car and I really don't like the elternatives much (BMW 7, Merc S. Lexus LS400) Audi could go to hell!

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A feeling I know only too well

[Golfer]

I had problems with my auto box on my 928 porsche, changed the oil cleaned the filter, and bingo great changes again.

[cruiser647]

My A8 (4.2 Q Sport) had 170K when I bought it. It was a '97 model, with one of the firrst 5 spd autos.

I immediatley had the oil/fileter (maybe just oil????) changed, even though it did not have a problem. The changes were smooth all the way through to the 201K when I sold it.

Don't give up, change the auto oil at a different stealer.

Good luck.

[Ska]

Altenatively find a good mechanic buy him a then like me take the ATF change method along to him together with about 5litres of ATF and do the ATF change together. Do this a three times as in many weeks then your laughing.

[SneakyMcC]

Laffer I am sure someone posted that Audi UK buy up bent/broken 8's or their boxes... ring any bells Botang?

[fudge]

My son (NikW) has a 1999 prefacelift A8 4.2 Sport and I gave him a hand to change his transmission oil about 6 months ago. When ordering the bits (filter/gasket) make sure that you quote the transmission code (on the sticker in the Service Book and in the boot) (initially Nik had been supplied with the wrong gasket/filter). We did it in his garage using 4 axle stands and following the excellent instructions produced by PaulW. His car had done 80k+ miles;the fluid we drained out was black and the magnets in the sump pan had a moderate amount of very small metal particles attached (looked like black grease on the magnets). Very straightforward job albeit it takes about 3 hours if you include the time jacking up the car and you do need some kind of pump to get the new oil in the gearbox (we used on of the pumps you can get which attach to an electric drill - ideal). If you are not mechanically minded any competent mechanic should have no difficulty if you give them the PaulW instructions but ensure that they use the correct oil from an Audi stealer. Finally, do not take any nonsense from stealers about there not being a filter in the gearbox - there is (although it may be called a strainer by Audi - looks like a filter to me!). After the change my son's transmission was noticeably smoother. Best of luck.

[Ska]

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PaulW - HELP!

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Paul W is a little pre-occupied these days just in case you were wondering:

DIYing Paul W

[nikw]

I was interested in buying an automatic BMW 325/525tds some years ago, and after some research on the relevant forums it became clear that changing the fluid and filter every 30k was critical to keeping the 'box behaving as it should. Having then had no experience or knowledge of autoboxes the business of frequently changing the fluid seemed strange.

Surely Audi's advice on service intervals, fluid specs, etc. for the A8 'box is in turn based upon the advice of the original equipment manufacturer, ZF? AFAIK Audi don't manufacture or assemble the 'boxes - they are supplied as a built-up part which is simply installed on the production line, much as I imagine other parts such as the seats are. If told by ZF that the 'boxes need a service every 30-40k why would Audi go out on a limb and decide to completely ignore that advice? They might as well decide that the engine's cambelt is a lifetime part!

What I'd like to know is have Audi learned from their mistake? Do the D3 A8s have a service interval for the gearbox? Have any of you lucky D3 owners yet covered 30-40k? When funds and secondhand prices permit I would like to upgrade to a D3 A8, but if it's going to be a case of playing Russian roulette with the 'boxes again then I might well not bother.

Those 'new' Jaguar XJs are supposed to be OK aren't they? No quattro, but made of the right stuff, at least...

[Laffer]

I have gone with changing the ATF/Filter and see what happens. You never know I may drop lucky.... (for a change). I'll post in a ferw days and let y'all know....

Laffer.

[SneakyMcC]

G'luck!

[johnss8]

Fingers crossed!!!

[Ska]

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Fingers crossed!!!

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I 2nd that Motion