Milo Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 My brother has recently bought a 225PS Leon Cupra R. He spotted a split pipe on it and had it replaced and since then he reckoned it has been ridiculously quick. So much so he thought it might have been remapped. So last night in a drunken haze we agreed to take each others cars out today (once we'd sobered up) to compare. So 2.0T 220PS quattro A4 versus 1.8T 225PS (alledgedy) 2WD Leon. On paper, both 6.9 seconds 0 to 60 so as long as we both came away thinking neither car seemed faster then we could assume his was still 225. I led and feck me, I was bricking it most of the time Drizzly conditions and 225PS front wheel drive are not recommended. The car was twitching and snaking all over the place. We went on a twisty uphill NSL road and every bend it was torque steering and spinning (in third) and generally was an absolute nuisance to control. In the end we concluded his was still 225PS but he commented on what a difference the handling of mine was over his. You're not kidding! Personally, I think that much power and torque going through the front wheels was bordering on dangerous in that car. How do the remapped GTi drivers feel about it? It could be I've got lazy and used to theA4 and the Leon just surprised me. My brother said when following, everything looked fine but to me, blasting uphill and understeering and torque steering into/out of every bend felt scary. What's the general opinion on the limit of 2WD (front wheel)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 Well the 507bhp M5 and M6's cope admirably with the power through 2 wheels. I have no issues with my meagre 333bhp either. Don't get spin and very rarely do I get traction loss except in the most dire of driving conditions. It's all about balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Posted September 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 Hmmmm, I was thinking more front wheel drive. I've never driven a RWD car at any rate so can't comment. I just found 225PS and front wheel drive fecking scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorburn Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 Main thing I didn't like about the Clio 182 Trophy was the way over rough surfaces it grabbed and pulled at the road as the wheels gained and then lost grip, really didn't make it fun to drive and I wasn't even pushing that hard, sapped my confidence in the front end as even in a straight line it felt like a liability. The Puma with 125bhp was an absolute joy to drive however. I'd like to try an Integra Type-R one day to see if it could change my mind about powerful FWD's but right now I'm not keen. Rear wheel drive however is a different matter. I love mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilB Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 I can remember some Saab engineers saying that about 220bhp is enough for a FWD car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mollox Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 Yeah, but what do they know? They make planes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Posted September 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Main thing I didn't like about the Clio 182 Trophy was the way over rough surfaces it grabbed and pulled at the road as the wheels gained and then lost grip, really didn't make it fun to drive and I wasn't even pushing that hard, sapped my confidence in the front end as even in a straight line it felt like a liability. [/ QUOTE ] That sums it up perfectly. It was skipping and pulling so unevenly as it tried to put the power down that even in a straight line you couldn't trust it. He was talking about maybe rempapping it (250PS?). Suicidal in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_m Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 I have driven the Cupra R 225, I thoroughly enjoyed it and found it to be fine!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilB Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 If your feeling very brave, there is an Autodelta 147 GTA that's got 328bhp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R32Ash Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 I test drove a Leon Cupra R in the wet. It wasn't a pleasant experience I have to say. I'm sure they're great fun in the dry, but I struggled to see how quick it was as there was so much wheelspin with the ESP off (and so much electronic interference with it on). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 Well dare I say it....my A4 Avant can't fecking handle 130ps never mind anything more..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_m Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 I love the Cupra R and would have had one before I moved to Audi had it not been for a W@nker of a salesman I can see myself having a cupra R in the future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 Imo, it's not all about bhp numbers with FWD - It also depends on chassis and the car's driveability and even suspension. I've driven a couple of Mk5 GTIs which are around 270 bhp and had no particular problem. It's also very important how sensitively you use your feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorburn Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 I think the problem is simply some cars are too aggressive on set up and end up compromised on the road. The Mk5 GTi is supposed to be relatively soft (although I know yours has had suspension changes Red) compared to most its competitors and is probably better for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 Yep, my suspension changes have helped traction. Only a wee bit of course but nevertheless welcome. Road driveability is what it's all about imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie_d Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 [ QUOTE ] I can remember some Saab engineers saying that about 220bhp is enough for a FWD car. [/ QUOTE ] True, but I think this is changing. With better chassis design and technolgy such as EDL and EPS the limits are being raised higher and higher. Obviously they won't catch up with RWD or AWD, but they're still rising Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorburn Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I can remember some Saab engineers saying that about 220bhp is enough for a FWD car. [/ QUOTE ] True, but I think this is changing. With better chassis design and technolgy such as EDL and EPS the limits are being raised higher and higher. Obviously they won't catch up with RWD or AWD, but they're still rising [/ QUOTE ] The good old trick of giving you more power and then not letting you use it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snail Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 [ QUOTE ] I have driven the Cupra R 225, I thoroughly enjoyed it and found it to be fine!! [/ QUOTE ] Id agree. In the dry, you can drive pretty much everywhere full throttle, without the traction control on. In the wet, its pepperami, but not in a bad way. Its pretty predictable, and its easy to get the car back in check. Im not sure id want more than 225 in a Cupra R though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woppum Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 I drove both the 147 GTA and the Feckus RS and they were both hideously scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarMad Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 I have a friend with a 215bhp Cupra R. I took him out in mine and he was amazed how well mine got the power down compared to his. I think every new model improves on what Fwd can do. Yes in extreme situations it is always going to struggle, but I would never say that mine was dangerous and as for third gear wheel spin, erm no, and I have more torque more of the time than a 225 Cupra. I think what condition your tyres are in are a bigger factor than anything. I just walked past an Audi A3 1.8T this morning that had tyres that were almost bald. I don't know how he has any traction at all, I bet he is having trouble getting 150bhp down let alone 200+... Muppet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon737 Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 I think that 200bhp is the limit with FWD cars, I had A CTR which I found could also be a hand full in the wet, in those drizzly damp conditions, wheel spin understeer used to scare the hell out of me as i could see those kerbs fast approaching! I hate to think what the Astra VXR is like espiecially in damp/wet conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_G Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 The Astra VXR is actually quite good until you push on in it and then power understeer starts. It is a bit jittery in greasy conditions, I suppose the whole arguement is about useable power. I seem to remember that TG slated the 147 GTA beacuse whilst a decent car you'd never be able to get more than a few thousand miles out of the front tyres for smoking them round any corner when you tried to put the power down. I'd hate to see what that Autodelta 147 GTA is like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 Couple of points. It's not all about power, torque is what will spin up the wheels easier. So a torquey car like a 1.8T will be "worse" than a Civic Type R which might have the same power, but not the same low down torque. Secondly, Milo your car has quattro, in which you really can just floor it and go, almost irrespective of conditions. A powerful 2wd car needs to be "driven", ie not just plant your foot to the floor and hang on. Switching straight out of your car into his I can understand your concerns, but I think most people coming up through the ranks of ever more powerful front wheel drive cars will probably automatically compensate their driving style. (That's not a criticism of your driving, just saying it's a very abrupt change from what you're used to). Also, if it had been dry you'd have noticed a big difference I expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djcool Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 I've driven a FWD car with nearly 350bhp (Remapped & bigger turbo). No problems, not even in the wet. What you have to do is drive completely differently, not wishing to teach granny to suck eggs, but a FWD car even with in excess of 300bhp can be perfectly managable in ALL conditions provided it is driven correctly. You can't just drive them like an AWD or drive it like you stole it when its wet. Personally I'd prefer AWD, but a FWD car IS managable with several hundred brake. A modified Volvo T5 can be taken to around 400bhp with a lot of money thrown at it, and the garage that services my car has a 500+bhp FWD Volvo T5 which is set up for racing, but is still road legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_G Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 I don't think it's a question of how much mated to FWD, it is about useable. I would imgaine that even in a race spec road legal T5 or any car with a large amount of bhp not all can be utilised in a FWD car in less than perfect conditions or sometime even in dry conditions. Like Ari said, perhaps the answer is to have a lower torque higher bhp car if it were that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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