Understeer Reduction

[mlhj83]

My MKV is coming in a weeks time!!!

Anyway, I would like to find out from any of you whether upgrading the suspension (eg. KW V3) has a greater effect of reducing understeer compared to getting the Haldex PP alone. I am more concerned about corner entry understeer. The initial plan was to get both but I am worried about warranty implications should the 4motion drivetrain suffer from any faults, especially since there would be increased drivetrain wear with the HPP being in sport/race mode. Help would be much appreciated

[Mook]

Upgrading the suspension will have a minimal effect on understeer, unless you go for a fully adjustable setup like the KW V3.

The best thing to do is to install an uprated rear anti-roll bar (ARB), if this is the only thing you're going to do.

Depending on your budget, you could step this up and install uprated front and rear ARBs (25mm front and 22mm rear) from someone like www.neuspeed.com available in the UK from www.awesome-gti.co.uk

Next step would be to uprate the Haldex unit and then follow it with fitting a front top strut brace (if you don't mind drilling the top of the struts - thinking about resale time).

I run a Mk4 with all of the above mods and the KW V3 setup. It's a lot of money, but well worth it IMO. I hate understeer with a vengeance, so it took a lot of tweaking with the rebound settings on the rear shocks to reduce this as much as possible. The nose-heavy nature of the car, as well as the use of the Haldex 4WD system means it's very, very difficult to eliminate understeer completely, but I'm just about there.

The best tip if you're tracking the car is to carry less speed into a corner, and you can pull more speed exiting.

Adjusting your driving style to be less aggressive and more progressive does wonders for your lap times

You'll need to talk to your dealer to find out about warranty issues - unfortunately the service manager at each dealer tends to have different opinions on whether after-market mods will have an affect on the warranty.

HTH

[rs32]

what I've noticed with the MkV is that if you drive it like a front-drive car, it behaves like one.

if you (as Mook says) drive it more progressively, or perhaps like a rear-drive car, it's far more rewarding.

Lift off on approach to corner, leave it quite late to turn in, then plant the right foot for maximum slingshot effect

Can sometime work best in higher gears, using the low-down torque rather than high-end power (dependant upon conditions and severity of corners).

With the Haldex controller upgrade, front/rear ARBs and 19" lightweight alloys it feels so much more solid than the standard setup - I personally found the car had to go too low with the KW V3's to get the required reduction in body roll but others may find them spot-on dependant upon their preference.

[mlhj83]

Thanks guys. Yes, I totally agree with driving progressively and using the late apex approach, it definitely makes wonders on the track. But the problem is driving on twisty country roads, where I can't exactly apply the same cornering technique as I would do on a track unless I can see beyond the bend ahead and use the entire width of the road to my advantage. Hence, I'm usually left with following the confines of my lane and taking the geometric line of the corner instead of the racing line which means taking tight turns. Am I right? So like Mook, I hate understeer with a vengeance.

I still really want the Haldex PP as I have heard nothing but praises about it. It would definitely mean that I can put more power down earlier and quicker during conering. I'll skip the KW V3 for now, prefer the koni FSD if they do ever get released for the MKV. I think the best thing for me now is to get used to the handling characteristics first and then decide what to do next later.

[rwsch1]

[ QUOTE ]

My MKV is coming in a weeks time!!!

Anyway, I would like to find out from any of you whether upgrading the suspension (eg. KW V3) has a greater effect of reducing understeer compared to getting the Haldex PP alone. I am more concerned about corner entry understeer. The initial plan was to get both but I am worried about warranty implications should the 4motion drivetrain suffer from any faults, especially since there would be increased drivetrain wear with the HPP being in sport/race mode. Help would be much appreciated

[/ QUOTE ]

'Mook' has hit most of the points for the MKIV R32 track mods and I run a similar setup. I believe that the MKV behaves similarly since it has the same basic layout. With KW V3 I have found that I can adjust the rear dampers' compression/rebound settings to create a very neutral handling car during steady-state cornering (along with a beefy rear sway bar). Key to all this is adjustability in your major suspension components. To be fair *some* of the understeer that we all experience and attribute to the design of the car is actually due to the driver entering a corner too fast or applying the gas pedal too soon and/or too aggressively...magnified by a front heavy design without a LSD.

The HPP Haldex is great and also does help to reduce understeer when you step on the gas by reacting faster to bump the rear out earlier, but a good stiff rear bar is probably the most noticeable and the first place to start IMO. I'd imagine that the HPP control unit would put more stress on the haldex unit, but surely not above what the unit is rated to handle. Regular Haldex servicing should keep it running for a good long time I'd imagine

[Jim_Cross]

I have to agree with the comments about driving style.

My previous car was a VX220, which really taught me just how much my inputs affect the handling of the car.

A lot of people complain about the VX's understeer, yet when you drive it properly (i.e. maintain good speed on corner entry, turn in positively but smoothly, and do not use full power until the apex) you realise it really is all down to you.

See the Top Gear episode with Kershaw showing Clarkson how to drive an S2 Elise for an excellent demonstration.

I drive the R32 in the same way, and again haven't found any problems with understeer on the road at all. I've also been very impressed with the Haldex system, much to my surprise. Again, driving it like a RWD makes it feel much more like a RWD car

[theshadow]

+ Bump to the comments about smooth driving...I find that the MKV R really doesn't like to be manhandled around corners at all...all you get is worn off corners on your front tires and, if you really push it into corners, some harsh scrubbing on the front tyres too.

My approach these days is to simply brake really hard going into corners, get off the brakes just before entry, then just choose the line, dive in and 'guide' it through along the intended arc with a light throttle foot, keeping the tyres just on the edge of chirping, then feeding on power heavily but progressively again as soon as I start unwind the steering.

Although it might seem slow at first compared to just chucking the car around Banzai style, it seems to work but of course there's always room for improvement eh?

All I can really add to what has been said by everyone else already is, aside from sway bars and the Haldex upgrade, the absolute best thing you can do to improve cornering is get the best wheels and tyres you can possibly get - ADVAN Neovas or even semi slicks will do wonders for your corner speeds in the dry (but if you're on semi slicks then you have to drive like a granny in the rain...6th gear and ESP on all the way home hehe).

[Daemon]

I can't speak for the MkV, but I will say this.

I've driven my MkIV R32 setup..

HPA SHS coilovers, HPP, 25mm rear sway

back to back with another R32 equipped with

PSS9 coilovers and 25mm rear sway

same road same day.

Both with similarly ultra sticky tires (which in our cars

tends to push them more toward understeer).

The PSS9 car had better turn-in response, feeling a bit more neutral

but would understeer once I got on the throttle.

Mine has a more progressive turn-in but is almost dead neutral

on the throttle through the turns. I feel very confident

lifting off the throttle mid-turn to tuck the nose in a bit

more, if so desired, while the PSS9 setup felt a little less

secure, but I could probably get used to it.

A big rear sway bar is really the biggest bang for the buck

when it comes to improving steady state cornering feel, and the HPP

the best mod for on-throttle feel.

No matter what I do to decrease understeer or try to

induce oversteer, I've never really felt the car get away from me.

Any time I have gotten a drift on dry or wet pavement, I've

immediately wanted to do it again. E.g.

http://www.thud.us/videos/car-av/2nd-creek-drifts-divx.avi

(Requires DiVX codec or VLC Media player)

ian

[ChrisBuer]

I'd have to disagree slightly with some of the posts above. The absolute best thing you can do to improve cornering is get some proper driver training. Trust me, I've followed the limit handling god, Don Palmer who was in a Polo 1.6 at the time and I couldn't keep tabs with him on a damp track in my Caterham!!

It is worth making mods to the car, mainly to improve the feel of it and set it up for your own personal preference. However regarding corner entry speed, I can honestly say that I've never got near the limit of grip of my R32 on the road. Mainly because most of the time it isn't safe to do so because if I did take a corner on the limit, I'd not be able to stop in time if something was lying in the road around the bend. My driving coach always says "if you can't see a snake on a skate-board, then you don't know what's on the road", meaning that unless you can clearly see the road, you don't know what's on it.

For the track, I'd certainly take advantage of uprated mods which is one of the main reasons I'm tuning my car.

My technique for the road is to watch the limit point, match speed for the bend and "blend with the bend". A little bit of throttle to balance the car in the bend and as you start to chase the limit point, unlock the steering with smooth throttle application. It's all about being smooth!!!

A good technique is to think of a piece of string tied to the steering wheel and the other end tied to your big toe. As the lock comes off, the more you can move your foot to apply the throttle. When you steer in, the wheel turns pulling the string and your big toe up.

Don't take this literally though haha! I not suggesting you actually go around tying string to your feet

Cheers,

Chris

[Simonl]

[ QUOTE ]

unlock the steering with smooth throttle application

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the only bit i don't understand dude

[Mook]

Rather than coming out of a corner and flooring it, press the throttle gradually so as not to de-stabilise the car and you'll exit much more quickly.

[ChrisBuer]

Leman, the limit point is...

"...the furthest point along a road to which you have an uninterrupted view of the road surface. On a level stretch of road this will be where the right-hand side of the road appears to intersect with the left-hand side of the road. The limit point is used in a system of cornering called limit point analysis."

The speed in which this moves determines the severity of the corner. You can match your speed with it and "chase it" until it starts to run away from you i.e. the road opens up. Then you can apply smooth throttle application and power out of the bend.

The analogy of the string on the wheel is from a Porsche driving book. It's all about balancing throttle and steering.

For example - You steer into a left hand corner, the wheel is turned and the bottom of the wheel rotates anti clockwise. Imagine a piece of string tied to the bottom of your wheel. As it turns the string pulls upwards. If the other end is attached to your big toe, your foot is lifted up. The idea being that when you steer, you're not on full acceleration.

As the bend opens up, the lock comes off and the string is relaxed. This allows your foot to drop and more throttle to be applied.

It's a good technique to think about allowing you to maintain a smooth balance on throttle and steering

[rs32]

top posting Chris

[RedRobin]

Hear! Hear! Very helpful and informative posts . I'm planning to do a course with Drivetrain in the Spring. Don Palmer is an alternative option to consider.

Mook said: "Rather than coming out of a corner and flooring it, press the throttle gradually so as not to de-stabilise the car and you'll exit much more quickly." - I discovered this while concentrating on exiting a roundabout fast but not wanting to induce wheelspin - Because of a more progressive and smoother throttle I was surprised just how very quickly I made progress. This is in a Mk5 GTI but FWD of course.

The 'string' technique is a great way of describing what to do .

[AGK512]

I agree. Only apply the gas whn you know you won't need to come off the pedal again

[Daemon]

I agree that driver training will make you faster through the corners

but there's something to said for being able to set the car's

suspension up to feel the way you want it to, instead of always

having to work around the limitations of the suspension/weight

distribution etc.. A stock R32 can be driven very very fast

but that doesn't mean it can't be more fun to drive.

Some comments about fast driving based on my experience.

Yes, smoothness is key.

Smooth steering inputs, smooth braking, smooth on the throttle,

increasing steering inputs as you come off the throttle or brakes,

and decreasing steering inputs as you get on the gas, etc.

But, let's talk about apexes. Most everyone here knows what

a late apex is, and if you don't, you can easily look it up.

Whenever you see a diagram of late apexing you see a car

crossing the entire width of the track to execute the turn.

Unfortunately all too often, I see people doing the same thing on

the road, crossing the centerline (I know many of your B roads

don't have lines, so take this however you want). My advice is

to try practicing wide entry and late apexing all without

leaving your own lane. The car is only 5 1/2 feet wide,

and the lane is typically 8 to 10 feet wide, so there's

actually plenty of room to move around. On a twisty road

if you stay wide at corner entry and manage the throttle

and steering inputs to keep that wide line until you

can actually see the late apex, and then tuck the nose in toward

the apex while you roll on the throttle, you can generate

a ridiculous amount of speed without ever leaving your lane.

Instead, what I see most people do is tuck the nose in right

at corner entry and hug the inside edge of the lane, get on

the gas about mid corner, and then drift wide, either

across the centerline unintentionally or scraping the outside

edge of the road, also unintentionally. String a couple

turns together that way, and eventually it'll bite you.

They get so used to running wide, they start cutting across

the whole road believing that it'll make them faster.

I've followed guys like this who are using all 25 feet width

of the road, trying as hard as they can to get away,

and I keep up with them while staying in a single lane.

Stay wide until you can *see* where you're going. I originally

learned this riding a motorcycle, because it was a pure safety thing.

You stay wide in the turn so you can see further around it, and only

when you can see the corner exit, do you tuck in and get on the throttle.

Keeps you from running off in decreasing radius turns, or when

coming up on patches of gravel or tar or whatever. So not only

is it safer, it also happens to be the fastest way around the

corner for both cars and bikes.

I practice this sort of thing about a dozen times a week on

this road

ian

[JaminBen]

Nice one Ian. Different lines have a profound effect on corner exit speed, and it's not always the most obvious line that is best... Took me forever to figure that out!

For the OP, and as others have said, a rear arb will have the most effect on corner-entry grip. Adjustable coilovers with high rear rebound rates will help as well, but there is always a tradeoff.

I wish the MkV had adjustable front balljoints, as the MkIV does. I also wish someone manufactured raised balljoints (to keep some camber gain even when lowered) and camber plates for the MkV...

[ChrisBuer]

There was a thread a while ago on here that commented on offsiding (i.e. using all of the road).

It's perfectly legal but should only be done when you know it's safe to do so. As my instructor will say, "you're paying to use the road, so why not use all of it when you can".

Opening up a bend by offsiding will increase vision further plus aid stability in the corner by flattening out the bend.

I do agree with what people say about setting up the suspension on the car to aid cornering, but I firmly believe that on the road it is not needed to the degree in which people think. Sure set up the car so that it feels better and therefore you get more enjoyment out of it, but don't think that in order to go round corners quickly, you need to mod the car.

I haven't once taken any of my cars to the limit on the road because firstly it's not safe to do so (I wouldn't be able to stop in time in the distance I could see to be clear) and secondly when I can see through a bend clearly (clearly being the key word), I'll generally offside to improve stability and aid smoothness. Once this is done, you are generally carrying plenty of pace but the car is nowhere near it's limits.

I will upgrade my ARB's on the car as I want to take it on the track and last time I did this, I felt that it could be tightened up a bit. However for the road, unless you want to tweak the car for your own feel and preference, going road a corner well is all about technique

[Daemon]

My take on offsiding, as you call it, is that it's dangerous as hell

and should be avoided on the street, but I doubt I'm going to

convince anyone else, except by maybe showing that I'm just as fast

without doing it. Around here you never know what you might

encounter in the opposite lane. Motorcycles, bicycles, pedestrian

joggers, other cars etc. And if you ever do push anywhere close to

the limit and something unexpected comes up, you may not have any

margin left to get back into your lane. And even if it can

be done safely, it gives the impression of danger to other people

who see it, much like say, squealing tires do.

But putting the safety issue aside, I think you learn more about how

to go fast by maximizing your speed in one lane rather than two.

You learn that only a couple feet of difference in wheel placement

is still very important. It forces you to not be lazy about

picking the best line through the turn, paying attention

to the subtleties of the shape of the turn and apexing correctly.

Once you've mastered the ability to go fast in a constrained space

you'll find it a lot easier to really go fast on the track where

you now have much more room to play safely.

Back to the debate about suspension setup and feel versus

just going fast stock. I think setting the car up for the

best feel is important because we do spend 99% of our time

on the street rather than the track. The car should feel

good at 6 or 7 10th, instead of having to run at 8 or 9 10ths

to get the rear end of the car to play a part in the action.

A stock R32 has to be pushed so hard before it does anything

but mild understeer. It's much more enjoyable to have

a neutral feeling car that you don't have to push that hard.

ian

[theshadow]

Some excellent tips and opinions on driving technique here, good to see that this forum is attracting quality posters.

I agree with Daemon, technique is the most important thing but it's also the nature of the enthusiast beast to try and get the most out of our machines, be it speed or enjoyment, and handling behaviour is a big part of this.

My theory is that if you set the car up intelligently, as opposed to just taking the more-mods-is-better approach, you can have that much more fun practicing your driving skills

I've been conviced by now to try some H&R sways and the Haldex upgrade this coming Jan - simple,high bang for the buck upgrades that seem very likely by all accounts to keep me playing very happily with the car for another year or so before feeling like I 'need' any more mods.

[ChrisBuer]

I’d disagreed that offsiding is “dangerous as hell” Daemon as it depends on the application.

I’m not for a minute suggesting that it should be done at any opportunity or any corner, safety is paramount here. I’d actually consider overtaking more dangerous than offsiding to be honest.

Offsiding shouldn’t be done without proper driver training first. I’ve spent hours and hours behind the wheel with a top driving instructor (he finished 2nd in the Autocar Driver of the Year competition and is an HPC Gold member). He rarely offsides but when he does, it’s only to maintain stability and increase vision. If anything, by offsiding he can see even more of the road.

DVD’s such as the Bespoke Advanced Driving one does support offsiding and shows how to apply it correctly. As with anything, if it’s not done properly, then yes I’d agree that it would be dangerous. But to the trained advanced driver, it’s just another tool in the box.

Actually whilst on the subject of cornering my advanced instructor told me that at a recent HPC event they spoke about the “Analogy of a corner”. This looked at how many ways you can judge a corner and do you know how many they came up with….39! I managed about 10 and realised that there is still a long way to go. But hey, learning it part of the fun!!!

[BrakeSnake]

Great posts all round. Exactly the technique they teach you on performance driving track days. Took my R on one at Silverstone last month, and balanced throttle and steering is the way to do it. Brake deep and hard, positive and smooth on the steering with a balanced throttle until you reach the apex. As you start unwinding lock, gradually and smoothly increase throttle. The best speed into, round and out of a bend is the one where your tyres are about to 'chirp'... saves a few bob or two as well. Its all about getting pleasure from doing it as smoothly, progressively and satisfyingly as possible. You get more joy from using the correct technique, 'feeling' the road and car and being as smooth as possible. Speed is just something that is built up as you get better at it. As mentioned before, save it for the track or those few 'great' open roads where you can see ALL parts of a bend, the start of the straight ahead and the entry point to the next corner. Infact, ideally, as your negotiating one bend, you should already be looking past your exit (usually out your side window) and mentally setting up for entry into the next one. If you get it right, you'll exit one bend and be in the correct position and speed to flow through the next one. Doesn't really matter what car you drive, its all about enjoyment from the technique you use and feeling the road and car and yourself working together as one. Its a great feeling once you get it right...

[ChrisBuer]

Exactly Brakesnake!!

I never realised how much more fun you could get from driving until I started my advanced training. My goal is to get into the HPC, but that’s still some time off I think.

It’s all about balanced application of controls which is smooth and progressive. There are so many techniques that I’ve learnt, many of which don’t really need to be used on the road, but it’s good to understand them and apply them if and when they might be needed. Things like Heal & Toe, Trail Braking (only ever use this on the track), threshold braking (again for the track) and many more.

My particular favourite is “Hinting” which Don Palmer works a lot on. This is where you “hint” to the steering, i.e. move the wheel very slightly before making the turn. The reason for this is to wake up the tyres. If you park your car and move the wheel a couple of mm each way, it always springs back. This is because of the movement in the tyre wall. Therefore when you turn, it take’s 0.25 seconds for the front tyres to “wake” up because the first bit of movement is the tyre side walls moving and not the actually wheel. It takes a further 0.25 seconds for the rear wheels to wake up, so from turning into a bend the tyres are fully set up at 0.5 of a second later. Might not sound a lot, but when you “hint” to the steering you’ll feel just how much smoother the turn in is!

Anyway, don’t want to go on too much as I’m going slightly off topic now, but you’ve started me on a subject that I love

[RedRobin]

[ QUOTE ]

Anyway, don’t want to go on too much as I’m going slightly off topic now, but you’ve started me on a subject that I love

[/ QUOTE ]

....It's a subject we all love too! Not off topic as far as I'm concerned.

Now, if you really want something off topic, I can always be relied upon to........

[JaminBen]

Chris, a lot of those things can be used successfully and safely on the road. I heel&toe all the time... It's just become natural.

Haven't tried "hinting" but I do love "flicking"... I guess it all depends on the roads, traffic and visibility.

I completely agree that setting up the car properly leads to enjoyment on everyday roads. I don't need to drive at 10/10ths to feel my particular alignment, dampening setup and HPP work for me...

When are we doing a TS.net gtg at the 'Ring (so that Ian can take a European vacation)?

Cheers,