Is supagard cream a sealant or wax?

[pomme]

Hiya, when i got my new car a while ago i got a free (well supposidly?) box of supagard aftercare which contains both a shampoo and a paintseal cream.

I have been using the shampoo once a week followed by meguiars detailer, and then once a month the cream.

I was thinking of getting the autoglym polish, and extra gloss proetection, meguiars clay detailer and the meguiars gold class wax.

So that i would keep my weekly routine the same, but the monthly would be:

1. wash with supagard shampoo (and when finish get the megs shampoo, but which one?)then dry.

2. then clay detail

3. then use autoglym polish

4. then autogylm extra gloss protection.

5. then megs gold class wax.

But what i was wondering was is the supagard the same as the autoglym extra gloss protection, so that i could use the supagard till it ran out then move over to the autoglym?

[cleanimage]

Firstly, I have to point out that putting anything but the Supagard products on your car will effect the terms of the 3 year warrantee.

...having said that, Supagard is really good and we have never had a customer need to use the warrantee.

1. Wash the car with supergard shampoo, when this runs out buy another shampoo of decent quality that does not contain wax as you don't need it if you are going to apply a hand wax.

2. Detail clay - fine.

3,4,5, You don't need to polish your car, this will be a complete waste of time... if you are talking about Super Resin Polish, this is so mild that it won't touch Supagard, but the chemicals will clean it, and it is more of a wax than a polish, it is a cleaner wax... but the wax is synthetic and great over sealants which is why it is part of the Lifeshine system. If you do this then you will be fine.

But to put extra gloss protection over the top will just remove the SRP. EGP fills scratches - you shouldn't need it on a car that has supergard, it isn't any more shiny than SRP.

Gold Class - forget it!

Waxes do not build! You cannot layer waxes! Putting one wax over the top of another is a complete waste of time, money and effort. It just doesn't work. Waxes are re-wettable, each new layer washes away the previous layer.

If I were you, I'd buy some decent shampoo to replace the Supergard Shampoo when it runs out... Supergard shampoo would be my recommendation, if not, get some AutoSmart Care'n'Clean from ebay, it is formulated to be safe on sealants.

Then get a decent synthetic wax. Super resin polish or NXT would be good... and you are done!

[pomme]

Hiya thanx for the reply. As you can probably guess i have no idea about all these products or how they work.

But from what i gather from what you are saying is to:

1. wash with supagard shampoo (stay with this when it runs out).

2. clay detail.

but im not sure what to do now. As i your reply you mention that the autpglym super resin polish (the one i meant) was mild and wouldnt be as good as supagard, but at then end you say to get a decent syntheic wax such as super resin polish. Is this in terms of when the supargard runs out use it instead or use after/before it?

Sorry i have been reading http://www.autopia-carcare.com/inf-perfect.html

[ QUOTE ]

THE PERFECT SHINE

The Perfect Shine is a simple process that reliably achieves the best shine possible on any paint finish. Follow these steps and product recommendations:

<font color="red"> 1. </font> Wash your car twice with a high concentration of car wash solution. I recommend Sonus Gloss Shampoo. If your car is excessively dirty, you can use Dawn dish-washing liquid. If you do, be sure to rinse thoroughly.

<font color="red"> 2. </font> After washing and drying, examine your car's paint with your hand. If the paint is not perfectly smooth, use a paint-cleaning clay system and clay lubricant to remove the surface contamination.

<font color="red"> 3. </font> When the paint is clean and free of surface contamination, examine again for minor surface damage. If you find heavy scuffs or surface scratches, repair these flaws with a fine rubbing compound or scratch remover. If your paint has swirl marks and other minor micro marring, use a swirl remover polish. I also use swirl remover polish to remove any surface hazing created by using rubbing compound. You can polish by hand or machine. I prefer to work by hand unless the paint has heavy damage or swirl marks.

<font color="red"> 4. </font> Now it's time to glaze your paint to bring out its full gloss potential. For this I recommend a fine hand polish. I typically use a product like Sonus Paintwork Cleanser or P21S Paintwork Cleansing Lotion. If your paintwork is already in perfect condition, you can skip this step.

<font color="red"> 5. </font> Once perfectly polished, your paint is ready to be sealed. For this I use a product that's been protecting my cars since 1987, Klasse All-In-One. The Klasse acrylic formula has proven its quality to me again and again. Klasse All-In-One is a one-step acrylic resin that cleans, lightly polishes and protects paint with a durable acrylic finish. The best way to apply Klasse All-In-One is with a foam applicator pad. Klasse All-In-One contains cleaners that remove previous layers of Klasse All-In-One. If you wish to apply additional Klasse acrylic protection, you can apply one or more coats of Klasse Sealant Glaze. Klasse Sealant Glaze does not contain cleaners; it is a pure acrylic sealant. Additional layers of Klasse Sealant Glaze will increase protection and finish depth.

<font color="red"> 6. </font> You're almost there. The final step, the literal icing on the cake, is waxing. You may be asking, "After polishing and sealing, why wax?" The answer lies in the richness of color, depth and clarity that only a high-quality carnauba wax can bring out on a polished surface. For this job I reach for P21S Carnauba Car Wax. P21S is a true show car wax. Compared to other show car waxes of similar formula, P21S offers the most stunning results on black and red cars. P21S brings out a warmth and depth on red and yellow that is hard to duplicate. On black and dark blue cars, the paint looks like a reflection in a pool of water

[/ QUOTE ]

and thought that:

<font color="red"> 1. </font> would have been the supagard shampoo.

<font color="red"> 2. </font> would have been the meguiars clay detailer.

<font color="red"> 3. </font> is not needed.

<font color="red"> 4. </font> would have been the autoglym super resin polish.

<font color="red"> 5. </font> would have been the autoglym extra gloss protection.

<font color="red"> 6. </font> would have been the supagard cream or gold class wax.

i take it this is wrong?

[cleanimage]

There is one thing you need to understand, like most people on Autopia, this guy has no idea what he is talking about. This is a complete load of cobblers. I could get the same result by using T cut and then applying p21s over the top. The finish he describes will pretty much only be as good as the final coating which is p21s.

Secondly, America is a contry where people sue each other, and because the wax companies sued the synthetic wax companies... and won, because America has the best justice money can buy, synthetic waxes ar not called sealants in America. So when he says sealant, he just means a synthetic wax. And they do ot build! They do not layer! A synthertic wax is still a wax no mater what decision an American judge came up with.

Thirdly, this guy doesn't seem to know the difference between a glaze and a paint cleaner.

Then he uses and all in one polish/paint cleaner/synthetic wax???? - ????

Klasse by the way is a miricle peice of German technology - except nobody in Germany seems to have ever heard of it and until the internet came along, it was only available in america. It's a good product, better marketing!

The best advice I can offer is to stay away from Autopia.

My second bit of advice is to forget that Super Resin Polish is actually a polish at all. It's a cleaner wax. But just treat it like any other wax and forget that it cleans or polishes.

You don't need to polish Supagard, nor should you. You can apply a wax over supagard, a synthetic wax will work better than a natural wax, but really, you can apply anything you want. But just apply one, not a load of different ones from different ranges.

[cleanimage]

...and I forgot to mention - he recomends using washing up liquid? That should start alarm bells ringing!

[pomme]

Ahhh i did think some of the bits were a bit odd.

So you suggest:

1. shampoo with supagard.

2. meguiars clay detailer.

3. supagard cream.

4. a synthetic wax such as autoglym super resin polish or meguiars nxt.

is the p21s a good wax to use other then the two mentioned?

also how come you dont like meguiars gold class?

sorry for all the dumb questions, i just want to understand it a bit more and keep the paint work as good as possible.

[Brazo]

Sorry clean image I have to take up the autopian mantle

Yes there is a lot of bull poo on there and you have to know what to read and what to ingnore but believe me there is far more bull poo and incorrect advice on here (present company excepted ;-).

The above perfect shine was written by the owner DavidB and is widely accepted to be good advice - no different in fact to what your saying i.e. polish (abrade) - paint clean (Klasse AIO) and then a paint sealant or wax on top to protect.

Klasse AIO is very similer to autoglym SRP but less abrasive. It is a fantastic paint cleaner cum polish cum acrylic sealant that leaves your paint like butter so that a wax or strobger sealant can be applied. I have used this extensivly with excellent results. Pictures availavle upon request ;-)

SRP used with a buffer such as a porter cable can remove very fine scratches so I have no hesitation in saying it would remove supaguard. IMO, yes IMO supaguard is an overated expensive product and will offer no more in terms of protection than SRP and a good few layers of EGP.

I would be very interested to know why you feel pure waxes cannot be layered?

[Avus_Bub]

[ QUOTE ]

Hiya, when i got my new car a while ago i got a free (well supposidly?) box of supagard aftercare which contains both a shampoo and a paintseal cream.

But what i was wondering was is the supagard the same as the autoglym extra gloss protection, so that i could use the supagard till it ran out then move over to the autoglym?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you guys have missed the question. I think I'm right in saying that Pomme hasn't got the full "Supagard Treatment" and only an aftercare pack.

So I'd say use up the Shampoo and PaintSeal Cream, then just go onto what ever takes your fancy, Right?

[pomme]

Avus_Bub, yeah your righti only have the aftercare pack which includes the shampoo and paintseal cream.

so whats your oppinion on what i should use?

Brazo

what do you think i should use from what i have suggested?

Andrew

[Brazo]

http://shop.meguiars.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1323

[cleanimage]

As far as I know, the sealant cream is pretty much a synthetic wax wich is formulated along the same lines as Supagard and works with it. But it's dreadful stuff to use. It's really hard work.

If you haven't actually got Supagard treatment, it's probably best left on the shelf.

[ QUOTE ]

The above perfect shine was written by the owner DavidB and is widely accepted to be good advice - no different in fact to what your saying i.e. polish (abrade) - paint clean (Klasse AIO) and then a paint sealant or wax on top to protect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats not what I am saying, why would you use a paint cleaner after you have polished? Why use a cleaner wax after you have used a paint cleaner? ...especially when you are going to put a wax over the top? It's nonsense from a "great shine" point of view, but from a retail point of view its fantastic as these instruction involve a whole shopping list of products that are sold on Autopia.

Maybe I am wrong, maybe this guy does know what he is talking about, but he's still talking cobblers.

[ QUOTE ]

I would be very interested to know why you feel pure waxes cannot be layered?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wax or sealant contains A main wax resin, various other waxes, fats, oils, a solvent to melt them all, an emulsifier to help them mix with water, and water. There are very few exceptions to this.

When they dry on your car, the solvent and water evaporate and leave your car covered in oil, fat and wax. The molecular chains of these three ingredients are fairly similar and they all bond together. but they are actually pretty weak and the bonds are not very strong.

if you then add another wax over the top, you will be applying wax, oil and fat again, but also solvent, which will melt the existing layer.

It's exactly the same story with Polymer sealants even though the bonds are stronger, they are still melted by the solvents in the next layer. The only sealants that will bond are those that use a hardner... these act more like emulsion paint, it is not water based but suspended in water, once the water evaporates there is a chemical reaction which makes the coating permanent.

[Brazo]

Thats not what I am saying, why would you use a paint cleaner after you have polished? Why use a cleaner wax after you have used a paint cleaner? ...especially when you are going to put a wax over the top? It's nonsense from a "great shine" point of view, but from a retail point of view its fantastic as these instruction involve a whole shopping list of products that are sold on Autopia.

Dan

Many polishes contain oils which can affect the bonding of sealants to the paintwork. Using a paint cleaner or AIO will remove these oils and provide a good base for a sealant to bond to!

If you leave waxes and sealants 24 hours between coats they can layer. I have built up 3 layesr of klasse super gloss and have noticed an increase in depth through each layer and increased durabilty over just one layer. Washing up liquid didn't remove my coat of klasse sg so I doubt applying another would.

PS all from experience and not opinion

[cleanimage]

[ QUOTE ]

PS all from experience and not opinion

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not opinion, it's chemistry!

I admit that I am no expert on chemistry, which is why I have asked this question of four industry experts, Bud Abrahm, Ron Ketchum, Willy Winterfaulk and Jitu Jhaveri.

...all because this subject keeps comming up time and time again. The opinion of the experts is that any build could be measured in molecules and you would need a micrometer and glossymeter to measure it! And that touches upon another hot topic within the industry, how to measure depth of shine, glossyness etc. Unless you have these tools for acurate measuring, then all opinions are subjective, and often wrong.

If these sealants and waxes actually did layer, don't you think the manufacturers would advertize the fact? It seems to be something many enthusiasts want so it would be a hot selling point and it would mean they could sell tons of the stuff as some people would be waxing every day.

[Brazo]

Dan Take klasse SG for example (have you used it?) after 24 hours it fully cures and is resistant to pretty much anything including as I said washing up liquid. My own experience is that it can be layered 3 layers is pretty much the end point where additional layers offer no or little benefit.

And each layer adds additional durability. This I put before 4 names I have never heard of. You yourself hark on about supaguard and that SRP won't remove it so if SRP won't remove it why would an additional layer?

I have used Supaguard as an example of a durable sealant like klasse.

[cleanimage]

Firstly, I haven't said that an additional wax or synthetic wax will remove Supagard, it won't. Supagard is not a quite the same as Klasse, it is a different kind of polymer. Klasse is essentially a synthetic wax, a man made wax, Supagard is a plastic coating of PVC.

What americans call sealants are not the same as what we call sealants.

[Brazo]

Dan

Ps Klasse SG is not a polymer its an acrylic sealant which is why its so hard wearing.

Look mate I'm ending it here for tonight, come back when you know a little about the product.

[cleanimage]

Acrylic is a polymer, but I'm trying to avoid the chemistry because neither of us can talk with any great authority on that...

[Brazo]

Don't take me out of context now Dan, Zaino and FMJ for example are polymer sealants whereas klasse is an acrylic one (Rather than the way molecules bond)

[cleanimage]

[ QUOTE ]

Ps Klasse SG is not a polymer its an acrylic sealant which is why its so hard wearing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hard wearing compared to what? Klasse lasts about 6 months doesn't it?

[cleanimage]

[ QUOTE ]

Don't take me out of context now Dan, Zaino and FMJ for example are polymer sealants whereas klasse is an acrylic one (Rather than the way molecules bond)

[/ QUOTE ]

In a former life I worked almost exclusively with acrylics - paints and plastic. I once spend 2 months experimenting with acrylic sheeting and acrylic dyes to try and get a self adhesive Tiffany glass effect. I do know that during this time I went through a hell of a lot of acrylic thinner... which is a solvent.

It's the solvents that are in waxes and sealants that mean you can't layer them, as the solvents melt the first layer, it doesn't matter if you leave it for 24 hours or not! Acrylic is very sensitive to solvents, so much so that I have seen alcohol shatter a polished sheet of acrylic, Its bittle without plasticizers, hence it suffers from solvent migration, "Klasse will not penetrate or change paint" - really?. Acrylic sheeting is glued using solvents such as DCM, it can even be polished using solvents.

On the other hand, Sealants such as Lifeshine, Diamondbrite and Supagard etc. are made made from the PVC and PTFE families of plastics, both are famed for thier chemical resistance... this is why all the solvent packed chemicals on our shelves are packed in PVC containers and the companies that make them have machinery with PTFE washers and valves.

However, every day strength has a lot to do with how molicules bond with eachother. The more directions in which they bond, the stronger they are as a general rule, this is why they last so much longer than wax.

[FiveStar]

[ QUOTE ]

Klasse by the way is a miricle peice of German technology - except nobody in Germany seems to have ever heard of it

[/ QUOTE ]

This is because Klasse doesn't exist in Germany.

Germans know this product as Carlack.

Klasse is the USA company that imports Carlack. The bottle and label change, but the stuff inside is identical to Carlack.

Also, Grojet-2000 is pretty much identical and is widely available throughout Europe.

I've used all three and can tell no difference between them... so anyone wanting to buy this stuff should just go for whatever they can get cheapest.

BTW, Klasse/Carlack/Grojet does a great job on restoring neglected window rubbers aswell as making paintwork look great.

[cleanimage]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Klasse by the way is a miricle peice of German technology - except nobody in Germany seems to have ever heard of it

[/ QUOTE ]

This is because Klasse doesn't exist in Germany.

Germans know this product as Carlack.

Klasse is the USA company that imports Carlack. The bottle and label change, but the stuff inside is identical to Carlack.

Also, Grojet-2000 is pretty much identical and is widely available throughout Europe.

I've used all three and can tell no difference between them... so anyone wanting to buy this stuff should just go for whatever they can get cheapest.

BTW, Klasse/Carlack/Grojet does a great job on restoring neglected window rubbers aswell as making paintwork look great.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a good tip about rubbers, the same can be said of lots of polishes. You just have to take care not to wipe it down the cracks and to wipe it off before it dries hard.

Thanks for sharing that about Carlack, I asked a load of questions about Klasse in America but everybody told me it was actually an American product manufacturerd in America... So thanks for telling me something I didn't know. There's no doubt about it, even though the Klasse gallon cans aren't as sexy as some of the other brands on the market, it's certainly a contender.