R36 and DSG ????

[rozzerfodder]

Guys, just got Feb 2007 edition of what car and it states " A HOT R36 version of the VW Passat will be ready for next summer. the £28,000 R36 uses a 3.6 litre V6 that develops 296bhp,-enough for the Passat to cover the 0-62MPH dash in 5.6sec. Top speed is limited to 155mph. The R36, available in saloon and estate forms, will have 4motion four wheel drive and a DSG automatic gearbox as standard."

Apologies if this has been put up elsewhere but if not, it restarts the debate about a Golf R36 and more to the point, if it comes in DSG format, is this a totally new box or just a "strengthened" DSG that is currently available. I am sure those of us contemplating remaps on our DSG motors want this one answered.

Oh, and Happy New Year to all TSN'rs, spesh those who drive the fastest cars in the world

[Oli]

Yes, heard this before

Got me all excited, as I thought you were talking about the Golf R36!!

[Snoopy]

This has been talked about many times the engine details were discussed in the Golf R32 section. Also photos of it from the motorshow.

[rozzerfodder]

Oli, Geoff

yeah we all know about the debate regarding the R36 "will it" won't it" but my attention was drawn to the DSG bit. I have not come across discussion regarding DSG for this motor and was wondering about it due to the 3.6 clearly capable of exceeding the current DSG box torque limits.

Should of worded it better

[RedRobin]

....Which also raises the question about whether the current Mk5 R32's DSG box is identical to the GTI's and also what are the R32's torque limits? 300 ft lb being the sensible ceiling for any remap for the GTI.

[wytco0]

Hi all, just popped over from the R32 area ;-)

I am always interested in why there is an assumption that the DSG box cannot handle more power?

I am not expert but I find it very hard to believe that VW would build a box that was at the limit of the power it could handle and which did not have a significant built in safety margin.

Has anyone actually got figure that show the design working max figures for the current DSG box?

My guess is that it would handle a fair bit more power and torque.

[Yahoo]

[ QUOTE ]

I am always interested in why there is an assumption that the DSG box cannot handle more power?

I am not expert but I find it very hard to believe that VW would build a box that was at the limit of the power it could handle and which did not have a significant built in safety margin.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that a number of tuning companies limit the torque of their remap for DSG equipped cars is evidence enough for me.

[wytco0]

Yahoo, could you give a couple of examples with the limits they found ?

[RedRobin]

Hi wytco0,

I have heard from several sources (one a Senior Race Engineer with 30 years experience in both the road and race arenas) that VW build-in a safety margin or 'headroom' of about +40%. VW tend to have higher headroom in their products than many other manufacturers. So, the standard OEM DSG is not sold off the production line at its limit.

I believe that the GTI's DSG Torque is 280 Nm / 206 ft lb as standard and that the Mk5 R32 DSG is 320 Nm / 236 ft lb, which raises the question whether the DSG boxes are different or the same on Mk5 GTIs and .:Rs - ???? Anyone ????

[rs32]

I reckon same physical box but slightly different software between the 2.0T and the 3.2

and apparently the DSG box shares 75% of its components with the manual box.

[RedRobin]

[ QUOTE ]

Yahoo, could you give a couple of examples with the limits they found ?

[/ QUOTE ]

....I spent quite a lot of time and research into the effects of remapping a DSG GTI before I took the plunge by Revo-ing mine. All the well established tuners told me independently that they would limit their tuning to about 300 ft lb / 410 Nm. My Stage1 Revo is about 244 bhp and 300 ft lb and their Stage2 would deliver about 265 bhp but still limit the torque to 300 ft lb. Tuners cannot afford their reputation to have their customers' car blow a DSG box!

[RedRobin]

Hi Rich - I knew you'd be the man for knowing something on this. There's a separate DSG component called a Mechatronics Module and I bet that's where the .:R/GTI differences are. I had mine replaced under warranty very early on. It didn't 'break' but just hiccupped and I think they replaced it as the easiest option. I reported it all: HERE

[Yahoo]

[ QUOTE ]

they would limit their tuning to about 300 ft lb / 410 Nm.

[/ QUOTE ]

These figures are in line with the most powerful production DSG equipped car (except for the Veyron) an Audi S4. This car has 410 Nm torque and DSG is an optional extra (or tiptronic in Audi land). The more powerful RS4 does not come with DSG/Tiptronic as an option.

To my unserstanding, there are several versions of the DSG gearbox that are used across the VAG ranges. Each box is rated at different torque/BHP levels.

I suspect that the issue with upping torque levels with DSG equipped cars is down to gearbox components (such as clutch plates) that are traditionally regarded as replacable/consumable items on normal gearboxes. As bhp increases, so does the torque being transfered by all gearbox components, clutch plates in particular. On normal gearboxes, these items can be replaced as they wear out (whether after 10 000 miles of 100 000 miles). But the internal components of DSG geaboxes are not regarded as replacable (in fact early DSG boxes in MKIV R32's and Audi TT's were sealed units and couldn't even have their oil replaced!). Although oil can be replaced on the more recent boxes, if a DSG gearbox is stripped beyond the ancilliary and other minor components (into the clutch housing for example), there is a label which warns that the warrenty of the box will be invalidated (even if opened by a VAG senior technician).

IMO all of this evidence stacks to suggest there are real issues surrounding upping the torque beyond 410Nm on the current generation of DSG gearboxes.

[rs32]

don't forget that with the R32 you'll be lucky to get more than 250-260 lb/ft of torque without major engine modifications e.g. upgraded cams etc.

so I don't suppose tuners are too bothered about whether the power upgrades for the .:R cars will breach the DSG "limits". However I do know that certain tuners have had issues with the downshifts ("blips" ) on DSG R32's as with remapped ECU's it has caused excess fuel to be dumped into the exhaust.

Most tuners will be using the 2.0T FSI engine as the yardstick for testing DSG "safe limits" as these engines can produce more power & torque more easily by a simple remap and exhaust combination. So that's where the market - and hence the money - is at the moment.