Ritey Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Interesting post s8ed, so how big is your collection? Must be of a fair size to pick up on that kind of detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teacake Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Pretty much everything since 1997, so not that many, really. It was interesting archiving the 1997 Australian GP the other day while watching the 2008 equivalent. There were only four drivers in that race that are still going - Coulthard, Barrichello, Trulli and Fisichella. Half Schumacher was in his first race, so I've got his entire career Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
42reina42 Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Let's Fernando Alonso have a (much) better car and you will not be bored anymore ... In fact the best of the race was the triple car in parallel including Fernando Alonso turtle's car .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teacake Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 [ QUOTE ] Let's Fernando Alonso have a (much) better car and you will not be bored anymore ... [/ QUOTE ]Either way, Alonso should be much happier now his team-mate isn't allowed to challenge him. [ QUOTE ] In fact the best of the race was the triple car in parallel including Fernando Alonso turtle's car .... [/ QUOTE ]Alonso and Heidfeld mobbing Coulthard into the hairpin? Yes, that was one of the highlights, as was Coulthard and Alonso wheel-to-wheel for the next few corners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
42reina42 Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Let's Fernando Alonso have a (much) better car and you will not be bored anymore ... [/ QUOTE ]Either way, Alonso should be much happier now his team-mate isn't allowed to challenge him. [ QUOTE ] In fact the best of the race was the triple car in parallel including Fernando Alonso turtle's car .... [/ QUOTE ]Alonso and Heidfeld mobbing Coulthard into the hairpin? Yes, that was one of the highlights, as was Coulthard and Alonso wheel-to-wheel for the next few corners. [/ QUOTE ] Is not allowed Nelsinho Piquet to challenge him ? Why And yes ... Coulthard and Alonso wheel-to-wheel was very interesting ... and for me the most exciting of the race .. and also when Alonso was not able to do anything against Weber's Red Bull car at the end of the race ... like Hamilton that was lots of laps after him ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarMad Posted March 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 [ QUOTE ] Is not allowed Nelsinho Piquet to challenge him ? Why [/ QUOTE ] Story goes that he is the No.1 driver and if they are head to head he gets the nod. Do you know where he has lost that 0.6 seconds a lap he brings by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
42reina42 Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Is not allowed Nelsinho Piquet to challenge him ? Why [/ QUOTE ] Story goes that he is the No.1 driver and if they are head to head he gets the nod. Do you know where he has lost that 0.6 seconds a lap he brings by the way. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, for me and many others, he is still the No. 1 ... for you and for others it may be Hamilton or Raikkonen .. no problem ... Where do you get that he brought 0.6 seconds ? From his pocket ??? Today, and for me, the R28 is even worst than the Williams .. so, Alonso is 6th (if I'm not wrong) with a very bad car. Remember that when Alonso had a good Renault, he won 2 titles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarMad Posted March 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 [ QUOTE ] Where do you get that he brought 0.6 seconds ? From his pocket ??? [/ QUOTE ] It was in an interview he did for the TV, when he is in the car thats how much faster it goes and nobody else could match that extra speed. That was early last season before things didn't go so well. Hey he is a great driver but only when the going is good or things are going the way he wants them to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazza_g Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 [ QUOTE ] Sad to say, I think I'm able to answer this definitively. Over the last couple of years, I've been steadily archiving my collection of F1 races from VHS to DVD, in the process removing any ads. In the process, I've learned more than anyone should have to learn about ITV's advertising patterns. The standard pattern for adverts has usually been two breaks before the race, five during, and two afterwards. The pre-race breaks have tended to be 3+ mins, the post-race ones somewhat shorter, often less than 2 mins. In the early seasons of ITV coverage, the in-race breaks would be 2 mins 25 seconds. In the last couple of years, they have lengthened to 2 minutes 55 (so an extra 2.5 minutes of adverts instead of racing over the 5 breaks). Australia this year returned to the shorter 2'25" breaks, presumably because it's harder to sell advertising space at five in the morning. Malaysia returned to the now-standard 5x 2'55" breaks, but with much shorter pre-race breaks and only one post-race one. In total, then, Malaysia had the same amount of in-race time lost to adverts as last year's races, and about five minutes less advertising than normal at beginning and end of the programme. Again, this is probably due to the early morning time slot. The re-run may have extended these breaks back to normal length, but the number and location of breaks would have been fixed by the commentary from the live broadcast. Phew. In summary, they didn't put in more breaks, nor did they make them longer. I suspect either the timing particularly jarred for you on this occasion or, more likely, you're paying more attention to them at the moment because of the news that they will be going from next year. [/ QUOTE ] outstanding reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
42reina42 Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Where do you get that he brought 0.6 seconds ? From his pocket ??? [/ QUOTE ] It was in an interview he did for the TV, when he is in the car thats how much faster it goes and nobody else could match that extra speed. That was early last season before things didn't go so well. Hey he is a great driver but only when the going is good or things are going the way he wants them to. [/ QUOTE ] The problem is that Renault says that for Barcelona GP they will improve about 0.2 .. 0.3 seconds ... that's nothing whem I'm sure that all the others are going to improve more than that .. Alonso does not have a car this year .. he did not want to miss this year when Traction Control has been disabled ... but Renault has been a bad choice. If Ferrari or BMW knocks the door or his manager does something .. he will not be in Renault next year It can be frustrating to have a car like that R28 .. did you see when Alonso overtook Coulthard when he was in parallel also with Heidfild ? He did it because Coulthard's car was with more petrol .. I would say much more petrol ... and the Red Bull has Renault engine !!! The current R28 is a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 [ QUOTE ] If Ferrari or BMW knocks the door or his manager does something .. he will not be in Renault next year [/ QUOTE ] ....Without doubt, Alonso is a good driver but after how he has shown himself to be last season I'm not convinced that new Team Managers will want to work with him. He doesn't exactly bring harmony to a team imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durrsaku Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Well now Alonso has the opportunity to match Schumi's record by taking a car, developing it and winning 5 Championships. Only then i might consider supporting him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
42reina42 Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If Ferrari or BMW knocks the door or his manager does something .. he will not be in Renault next year [/ QUOTE ] ....Without doubt, Alonso is a good driver but after how he has shown himself to be last season I'm not convinced that new Team Managers will want to work with him. He doesn't exactly bring harmony to a team imo. [/ QUOTE ] Mmmm .. one needs time to see if you are right or not ... I think that he will not "die" at Renault and of course the next team is not going to be Force India or something similar ... You will see him sooner or later in Ferrari ... maybe if Ferrari does not fire out Massa soon, Alonso will not join Ferrari until 2010. About the harmony at McLaren, do you really believe that Alonso is the only & absolute guilty in that affair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
42reina42 Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [ QUOTE ] Well now Alonso has the opportunity to match Schumi's record by taking a car, developing it and winning 5 Championships. Only then i might consider supporting him. [/ QUOTE ] Durrsaku, you should know that after 2 years of development with Alonso, the Renault was in conditions to beat Ferrari and McLaren .. and Alonso won the 2 titles Look ... Renault returned to the F1 competition in 2002 and with Button & Trulli, the team got 23 points. In 2003, Alonso joined Renault and together with Trulli the team got 88 points, not bad..not bad ... In 2004, Alonso, Trulli and Villeneuve got 105 points ... the car is improving .. In 2005 and 2006 Renault with Fisichella & Alonso win the Championship and Alonso wins 2 titles beating Schumacher and Raikkonen ... Do not expect Alonso to wait 2 or more years at Renault to have a competitive car .. He has a 2 years contract that can be broken and he can go to another team ..this is the main reason (for me) to be at Renault this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teacake Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [ QUOTE ] About the harmony at McLaren, do you really believe that Alonso is the only & absolute guilty in that affair [/ QUOTE ] Well, let's look at what we know with the minimum of personal speculation. We know that Alonso went to McLaren thinking he'd get Number 1 status, something which was not accorded any of his predecessors, not Senna, not Prost, not Hakkinen. Alonso may have felt he had some sort of verbal undertaking from the McLaren team, but I fail to understand why they would deliberately have given him that impression, as it would surely have become counter-productive when the truth became known. With their well-publicised neutrality to all their drivers in the past, I don't know why Alonso thought he would be accorded star status. McLaren have always tried to get both cars as far up the field as possible, and the exact order of drivers has only become relevant when one driver is in with a chance of the driver's title and the other isn't. Even under those circumstances, arrangements have tended to be made between the drivers rather than by team orders. So we know that Ron Dennis was initially keen to get Alonso, and paid a lot of money for him. We know that Alonso rapidly became unhappy at not being made star driver. We know that he made his feelings known in the press, and attributed McLaren's success to his bringing of 0.6 seconds with him (that must really have pleased all the techies in the team). Everything came to a head in Hungary, where Alonso attempted to blackmail Dennis with information about spying. This was clearly the point of no return. After that, Alonso's refusal to appear at the FIA hearings that resulted was probably symptomatic of the total breakdown in his relationship with the team rather than a cause of it. In order for the breakdown in relations with McLaren to have been the team's (or Dennis') fault, they would have to have promised Alonso something they had no intention of providing (star status), reversed the way they operated their team (neutrality between the drivers) and deliberately put the rookie ahead of the two-times world champion. Would they do this for Hamilton, when they didn't for Hakkinen or Senna? I don't find that credible. Ron Dennis has had close fatherly relationships with several McLaren drivers in the past, the two mentioned being particular examples, but first and foremost he is a hard-nosed team manager and businessman. I fail to understand why people would think that McLaren would spend several million on hiring Alonso and then deliberately sabotage his chances. Now the speculation. As regards Renault's performance with and without Alonso, obviously time will tell. I think you over-state the role of the driver in a team's performance, when that is only a small part of what makes a team successful. Renault were perfectly capable of winning races and championships before Alonso arrived on the scene (five championships in the 90s as engine supplier before they pulled out at the end of 1997, don't forget). As you yourself state, Renault were newly back in F1 in 2002, so one would naturally expect their performance to improve steadily. To take another example: Damon Hill was reckoned to be one of the best test drivers. He was always able to give the team really good feedback to the engineers, which allowed them to take strides in improving the car. Therefore, I could put forward the theory that Williams' success in the mid-90s was due to Hill's efforts, and that their decline since 1997 is a result of their losing his help in testing and setting up the car. Is this true? No. There are 101 factors in the success (or otherwise) of a team, and Hill was just one of them. RedRobin made a comment that he didn't think many team managers would want to hire Alonso now. I think he's right. Alonso has acted unprofessionally and against the interests of his team. He has caused them a lot of negative press, he has arrogantly claimed credit for all their success and failed to shoulder any share of responsibility for their failure. I think anyone other than Flav would have thought twice about hiring him. If Alonso knew McLaren had been cheating, he should either have taken it straight to the FIA or shut up, in which case he would have been complicit in the cheating himself. Trying to use it as a bargaining chip to get star status was totally out of order. All the teams at times skate very close to the borders of legalility (and sometimes quite some way past). What team manager is going to want some-one on their team who would try to use such knowledge in the way Alonso did? I find the idea that he has to be given preferential treatment over his team-mate to be un-sportsmanlike. He's a fast driver, and shouldn't need such props. To demand them smacks of fear of a fair fight. I think it's telling that you don't expect Alonso to remain at Renault if the car is uncompetitive. I imagine that's a pretty good assessment of his attitude. Where every other driver at least talks like he's in his team for the long-haul, through thick and thin, Alonso only wants to bother with a team at the top. Even Jacques F--king Villeneuve stuck it out at BAR, where they couldn't even get the two halves of the car to match. There has been speculation that Alonso would spend a year at Renault before moving to Ferrari, but can you really see him partnering Raikkonen? Can you really see Raikkonen accepting second place to Alonso, especially after he's won his own second consecutive championship this year? unlike McLaren, Ferrari have often operated a lead/second driver arrangement, and I can't see them wanting to deal with a prima donna who thinks he should be the lead. Most of us who follow F1 liked Alonso a lot in his early career, cheered when he won his first race, and felt his two championships were hard-fought and fairly won. However, I can't be the only one who finds his behaviour in 2007 very disappointing, very un-sporting, and not worthy of a double world champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
42reina42 Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] About the harmony at McLaren, do you really believe that Alonso is the only & absolute guilty in that affair [/ QUOTE ] Well, let's look at what we know with the minimum of personal speculation. We know that Alonso went to McLaren thinking he'd get Number 1 status, something which was not accorded any of his predecessors, not Senna, not Prost, not Hakkinen. Alonso may have felt he had some sort of verbal undertaking from the McLaren team, but I fail to understand why they would deliberately have given him that impression, as it would surely have become counter-productive when the truth became known. With their well-publicised neutrality to all their drivers in the past, I don't know why Alonso thought he would be accorded star status. McLaren have always tried to get both cars as far up the field as possible, and the exact order of drivers has only become relevant when one driver is in with a chance of the driver's title and the other isn't. Even under those circumstances, arrangements have tended to be made between the drivers rather than by team orders. So we know that Ron Dennis was initially keen to get Alonso, and paid a lot of money for him. We know that Alonso rapidly became unhappy at not being made star driver. We know that he made his feelings known in the press, and attributed McLaren's success to his bringing of 0.6 seconds with him (that must really have pleased all the techies in the team). Everything came to a head in Hungary, where Alonso attempted to blackmail Dennis with information about spying. This was clearly the point of no return. After that, Alonso's refusal to appear at the FIA hearings that resulted was probably symptomatic of the total breakdown in his relationship with the team rather than a cause of it. In order for the breakdown in relations with McLaren to have been the team's (or Dennis') fault, they would have to have promised Alonso something they had no intention of providing (star status), reversed the way they operated their team (neutrality between the drivers) and deliberately put the rookie ahead of the two-times world champion. Would they do this for Hamilton, when they didn't for Hakkinen or Senna? I don't find that credible. Ron Dennis has had close fatherly relationships with several McLaren drivers in the past, the two mentioned being particular examples, but first and foremost he is a hard-nosed team manager and businessman. I fail to understand why people would think that McLaren would spend several million on hiring Alonso and then deliberately sabotage his chances. Now the speculation. As regards Renault's performance with and without Alonso, obviously time will tell. I think you over-state the role of the driver in a team's performance, when that is only a small part of what makes a team successful. Renault were perfectly capable of winning races and championships before Alonso arrived on the scene (five championships in the 90s as engine supplier before they pulled out at the end of 1997, don't forget). As you yourself state, Renault were newly back in F1 in 2002, so one would naturally expect their performance to improve steadily. To take another example: Damon Hill was reckoned to be one of the best test drivers. He was always able to give the team really good feedback to the engineers, which allowed them to take strides in improving the car. Therefore, I could put forward the theory that Williams' success in the mid-90s was due to Hill's efforts, and that their decline since 1997 is a result of their losing his help in testing and setting up the car. Is this true? No. There are 101 factors in the success (or otherwise) of a team, and Hill was just one of them. RedRobin made a comment that he didn't think many team managers would want to hire Alonso now. I think he's right. Alonso has acted unprofessionally and against the interests of his team. He has caused them a lot of negative press, he has arrogantly claimed credit for all their success and failed to shoulder any share of responsibility for their failure. I think anyone other than Flav would have thought twice about hiring him. If Alonso knew McLaren had been cheating, he should either have taken it straight to the FIA or shut up, in which case he would have been complicit in the cheating himself. Trying to use it as a bargaining chip to get star status was totally out of order. All the teams at times skate very close to the borders of legalility (and sometimes quite some way past). What team manager is going to want some-one on their team who would try to use such knowledge in the way Alonso did? I find the idea that he has to be given preferential treatment over his team-mate to be un-sportsmanlike. He's a fast driver, and shouldn't need such props. To demand them smacks of fear of a fair fight. I think it's telling that you don't expect Alonso to remain at Renault if the car is uncompetitive. I imagine that's a pretty good assessment of his attitude. Where every other driver at least talks like he's in his team for the long-haul, through thick and thin, Alonso only wants to bother with a team at the top. Even Jacques F--king Villeneuve stuck it out at BAR, where they couldn't even get the two halves of the car to match. There has been speculation that Alonso would spend a year at Renault before moving to Ferrari, but can you really see him partnering Raikkonen? Can you really see Raikkonen accepting second place to Alonso, especially after he's won his own second consecutive championship this year? unlike McLaren, Ferrari have often operated a lead/second driver arrangement, and I can't see them wanting to deal with a prima donna who thinks he should be the lead. Most of us who follow F1 liked Alonso a lot in his early career, cheered when he won his first race, and felt his two championships were hard-fought and fairly won. However, I can't be the only one who finds his behaviour in 2007 very disappointing, very un-sporting, and not worthy of a double world champion. [/ QUOTE ] First of all, thanks a lot for your time and for your loooooooooooong post ! Buff ... I'm going to need some time to study your comments and to answer properly, but to say something quickly, I agree with part of your comments. I also do not like how Alonso has managed his career at McLaren ... he has had the mouth very big and should have suffered the problems in another way. But I do not think that the only reason why Alonso was annoyed with McLaren was because he did not feel the No. 1 status. Well .. will quote (much) more later !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 ....Excellent post, s8ed Am I right in thinking then that Hamilton and Kovalainen are on an absolutely equal footing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teacake Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [ QUOTE ] Am I right in thinking then that Hamilton and Kovalainen are on an absolutely equal footing? [/ QUOTE ] I haven't heard anything to the contrary, and I'd be surprised if they weren't on equal footing, but I have to concede the possibility that Ron has been kidding us all this time, and secretly diverts the best stuff to whoever is his favourite, regardless of what he tells the press. Just because I don't believe it myself, doesn't make me right... Hang on, is that why Hakkinen beat Coulthard all those times? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teacake Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [ QUOTE ] But I do not think that the only reason why Alonso was annoyed with McLaren was because he did not feel the No. 1 status. [/ QUOTE ] On reflection, I think you're right, reina. I'd say that another reason he was unhappy was that Hamilton, out of the box, was challenging him on the track. It may well be that he gave Hamilton a lot of advice early on, not realising that things would turn out the way they did. Alonso certainly claims this, and I see no reason to doubt him. But once Lewis became a genuine threat, instead of doing his talking on the track, and raising his game to show Hamilton and the world who really was the best, Alonso chose to bitch in the press and to the team about the unfairness of it all. Not worthy of him, and out of character for the likeable person he was pre-2007. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techieboy Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [ QUOTE ] Most of us who follow F1 liked Alonso a lot in his early career, cheered when he won his first race, and felt his two championships were hard-fought and fairly won. However, I can't be the only one who finds his behaviour in 2007 very disappointing, very un-sporting, and not worthy of a double world champion. [/ QUOTE ] Spot on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Se5aScott Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Just how much of this is 'Alonso bitching' is down to the press though? I remember 1 press conference when he was asked if the team could sabotage his car, his answer was something like 'difficult question, I will not answer' The headlines were all Alonso:"Mclaren are sabotaging my car" WTF? Both drivers could have handled themselves better, but it isn't easy when the press are trying to make a hero of one and a villain of the other. Anyway back on topic, It was nice to see a few more of the cars finish. Does anyone remember James Allen in Melbourne, saying that it is impossible to overtake there but it will be much easier in Sepang as it is wider with different lines etc. Then at Sepang saying that it is notoriously difficult to overtake as although it is wide there is only one line through. Probably making excuses for LH getting stuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mook Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 I think Alonso is a top bloke. Especially now he's gorwn his hair back and stopped acting like the little school-boy he was trying to immitate (sp?) when he had short hair... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teacake Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [ QUOTE ] Just how much of this is 'Alonso bitching' is down to the press though? [/ QUOTE ] Good point well made. Last year there was any amount of goading from the press, trying to push both Alonso and Hamilton into making headline-worthy comments. When they didn't, the press would stretch what controversy they could. Even given that, Alonso was "off-message" quite a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
42reina42 Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] But I do not think that the only reason why Alonso was annoyed with McLaren was because he did not feel the No. 1 status. [/ QUOTE ] On reflection, I think you're right, reina. I'd say that another reason he was unhappy was that Hamilton, out of the box, was challenging him on the track. It may well be that he gave Hamilton a lot of advice early on, not realising that things would turn out the way they did. Alonso certainly claims this, and I see no reason to doubt him. But once Lewis became a genuine threat, instead of doing his talking on the track, and raising his game to show Hamilton and the world who really was the best, Alonso chose to bitch in the press and to the team about the unfairness of it all. Not worthy of him, and out of character for the likeable person he was pre-2007. [/ QUOTE ] Agree absolutely with you ! Alonso did not think that Hamilton would be at the high level he shown even at the 2007 pre-season. It shocked him and he should have concentrated all his efforts in showing he is the best. What nobody knows is what really happened inside the team that made Alonso to feel so uncomfortable, only jealousy ? The press says that there is a signed agreement between Alonso and McLaren (through their lawyers of course), where Alonso is not allowed to talk about McLaren 2007 affair by no means. Is it only for the Ferrari affair, or for more things ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mook Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 I would imagine it's the McLaren PR machine making sure that he can't talk about anything, to minimise the damage caused to the team during 2007. Funny how, as far as the TV and press coverage seems to be concerned, the McLaren 2007 saga seems to be pretty much forgotten already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now