vladman Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Hi guys, Seems like this is a very active S8 forum, so decided to join in hope of getting answers to some of the questions I have. I'm a former Jag XJR owner, and after an accident I'm now looking for a replacement car and an S8 is (and always was!) a very serious contender! I've looked extensively on Google and other forums, and still can't find definitive info I need to help me make my decision though. Hopefully, some of you may be able to answer these: What are the main differences in the D2 pre and post facelift models (other than the engine power)? Interior? (standard) Equipment? Exterior? Do they drive similarly, or is there a significant difference? When did the first facelift models appear? Can anyone post some pictures (or links to them) where I can see the difference between the pre and post facelift models? What's "final edition"? Is it different from the previous ones, or is it simply called that because the D2 was discontinued right after? Do they all have the "Sport" button, or just the "final edition" (read this somewhere)? What exactly does this button do (on the XJR it made the car shift down into first when slowing down for the lights, otherwise it always stays in second, and also it would downshift with less throttle input, than in non-sport)? What are the standard tyre/wheel sizes, and did they change between pre and post facelift (and "final edition") cars? I'm aware the gearboxes are their week spot, and tend to pack up around 120k miles? I'm hoping to get a much lower mileage car though. The timing belt needs changing around 80k miles, is this correct? Any other tips, things to be aware of, look out for, opinions, advice, and anything else relevant gratefully received. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IT_S8 Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Hi guys,Seems like this is a very active S8 forum, so decided to join in hope of getting answers to some of the questions I have. I'm a former Jag XJR owner, and after an accident I'm now looking for a replacement car and an S8 is (and always was!) a very serious contender! I've looked extensively on Google and other forums, and still can't find definitive info I need to help me make my decision though. Hopefully, some of you may be able to answer these: What are the main differences in the D2 pre and post facelift models (other than the engine power)? Interior? (standard) Equipment? Exterior? Do they drive similarly, or is there a significant difference? When did the first facelift models appear? Can anyone post some pictures (or links to them) where I can see the difference between the pre and post facelift models? What's "final edition"? Is it different from the previous ones, or is it simply called that because the D2 was discontinued right after? Do they all have the "Sport" button, or just the "final edition" (read this somewhere)? What exactly does this button do (on the XJR it made the car shift down into first when slowing down for the lights, otherwise it always stays in second, and also it would downshift with less throttle input, than in non-sport)? What are the standard tyre/wheel sizes, and did they change between pre and post facelift (and "final edition") cars? I'm aware the gearboxes are their week spot, and tend to pack up around 120k miles? I'm hoping to get a much lower mileage car though. The timing belt needs changing around 80k miles, is this correct? Any other tips, things to be aware of, look out for, opinions, advice, and anything else relevant gratefully received. Thanks! Welcome, you're in the right place.... Summary Differences between Pre and Post facelift S8. Facelift has: Full colour DIS (Trip computer) Sat Nav with 5" colour screen. Pre facelift had text only sat nav. A handful of prefacelift cars have 5" colour sat nav, but very rare. Bigger more sturdy armrests with integrated cubby holes illuminated interior door handles Redesigned map reading lights front and rear to reduce glare Tiptronic buttons on steering wheel Headlights and indicators combined into one unit - Preface were seperate Redesigned climate facia and buttons. PDC front and rear as standard (rear was option on pre facelift) Full 3 x 3 point seatbelt in rear (lap belt pre facelift) Pop up center headrest post facelift for 3rd rear passenger Various strengthening beams in floor and on front suspension post facelift Xenon headlights standard post facelift Normal rear screen with horizontal lines instead of pre facelift 'quick clear' Variable servicing available post facelift, fixed 10K intervals before 40V engines post facelift with 360Bhp vs 32v 340Bhp units Carpets are thinner post facelift, pre facelift ones were nicer ! Rectangular clear side repeaters vs orange square ones pre facelift Chrome upper trims to front and rear bumpers Front fog lights integrated into lower bumper Head airbags post facelift along with yaw sensor to detect when to deploy Improved sound deadening on parcel shelf, all 4 doors. + more will come to me no doubt. Facelift D2's appeared around the beginning of 1999. The first ones had higher specs than later ones as phone prep, auto dim mirrors etc were all standard kit at this point, and later were removed. The drive between the two is similar. The power is tough to distinguish, but the facelift ones feel a little more stiff and agile in my opinion. Final edition is a term that is used for many different reasons. In my personal opinion, it represents the very last batch of D2's produced, which came in only 4 colours (Black, Blue Red and Avus Silver), however its often used to refer to any car 2002 onwards The sport gearbox selection (instead of 432) came in 2002 and was fitted to all A8's, 2,8, 4.2 etc as well as S8. It works as you describe, holding higher revs, and being generally more ready for action that normal. The sports box also allows the use of the tiptronic buttons on the steering wheel without first selecting triptronic on the gearbox - Pre 2002 cars cant do this. Wheel sizes were standard between Pre and Post facelift. All S8's upto 2002 were on 18" wheels, with the 9 spoke 20" ones becoming popular, possibly standard on the final editions. I've not linked to any photos as there are so many to choose, but based on the info above, it should make it pretty easy to tell. Anything R reg or older is pre facelift. V reg or newer should be facelift. S and T's are a bit random! Cambelts are every 80,000 miles, and water pump change is recommended too at the same time. In some respects, it more cost effective to get a car with just over 80,000 miles that has had the cambelt done, than get one with 10,000 miles less on it as you'll have the £1000 bill to pick up soon. Gearboxes can be a weak point, more so pre facelift, but regular oil changes can prolong the life significantly. Getting a low mileage one doesnt guarantee the box will last longer, and you'll pay a hefty premium for it. The higher mileage ones have lots of life in if they have been treated right. Drive a few to get to know how they should feel. If in doubt, post a link here to the car(s) you're looking at and we'll give you the low down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vladman Posted April 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Thomo, wow, thank you for that, exceedingly informative! The only thing I didn't quite get is about this sports gearbox/button? Could you "re-explain" that please?? So there isn't a "button" as such, to switch the car into sports mode? When you say "sport gearbox selection (instead of 432)", you mean the gearstick gate looks different? Sorry, I'd really appreciate it if you could explain this further... From what you explained, I'll definitely be looking at a facelift car, as I didn't realise they were introduced that early. I'd probably be looking at a 2000 and onwards car. Regarding high-milers, what about other components (suspension mainly) if the engine is capable of very high mileage? Can the rest of the car keep up with it, so to speak, or is it frequent niggles (minor and major) with these high-milers? Am not looking at any specific examples just yet, still at the stage of gathering information, as I'm still considering other cars too (XJR again, absolutely loved that car, S-Type R (ugly, but great in all other respects)). Also, will most likely wait to buy (if I can restrain myself!) until end of summer, 'cause I'm trying to rebuild my NCB. Thanks so much again! Vlad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IT_S8 Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Thomo, wow, thank you for that, exceedingly informative! The only thing I didn't quite get is about this sports gearbox/button? Could you "re-explain" that please?? So there isn't a "button" as such, to switch the car into sports mode? When you say "sport gearbox selection (instead of 432)", you mean the gearstick gate looks different? Sorry, I'd really appreciate it if you could explain this further... From what you explained, I'll definitely be looking at a facelift car, as I didn't realise they were introduced that early. I'd probably be looking at a 2000 and onwards car. Regarding high-milers, what about other components (suspension mainly) if the engine is capable of very high mileage? Can the rest of the car keep up with it, so to speak, or is it frequent niggles (minor and major) with these high-milers? Am not looking at any specific examples just yet, still at the stage of gathering information, as I'm still considering other cars too (XJR again, absolutely loved that car, S-Type R (ugly, but great in all other respects)). Also, will most likely wait to buy (if I can restrain myself!) until end of summer, 'cause I'm trying to rebuild my NCB. Thanks so much again! Vlad. No worries - Look here: http://images.a8parts.co.uk/parts/101.JPG This image shows a gear selector from a very early car, when they were 4 speed. It has positions PRND321 and you can move it to the right to force tiptronic mode, where it can be moved up and down through the gears From 1997 onwards (on quattro, and earlier on 2 wheel drive) they fitted 5 speed boxes which had an identical gearlevel, but it went PRND432 + tiptronic. From 2002, they changed it to be PRNDS + triptronic - So you can't force the lower gears (unless you use tiptronic) but you instead have the (S)ports selection. So no, there is no dedicated button. Its a gear selection, but is essentially (D)rive on steroids :-) The engines last forever as long as they are serviced, and cambelts / water pumps changed. Front suspension is known to wear at high miles, usually results in a squeaking first, and later develops into knocking. Not major though, replace the suspension arms and shes good as new. Electrics are a bit more random. Faults come in at various mileages, I wouldnt say high mileage is more likely to be problematic. Interiors generally wear well as long as they've been looked after a little, so no real worries there, and even if the odd bit of trim is tired we've probably got a replacement in stock available. Cruise control switches on the left hand stalk are prone to failing, but as a result of lack of use rather than over use - Easily replaced though. We've had cars with nearly 300,000 miles on the clock which run better than cars with less than 70,000. Its all about how well its been looked after. Depending on your location (we're North Yorkshire) you're more than welcome to come along and have a look at whatever cars I've got here at the time to get a no obligation feel for whats what on them, without a salesman breathing down your neck for a sale Happy hunting..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vladman Posted April 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Hi Thomo, thank you again! So if I got it right, "tiptronic" means either stick or button manual shifting, with buttons being introduced on facelift models in 1999? How responsive is the gearbox to these manual shifts? Does it do it swiftly and smoothly, or does it take its time, and sometimes refuse to do what you're asking of it (like some other autos)? I'd LOVE to take you up on your offer and come and have a gander, but unfortunately I'm in London, so unless I was buying a car from you (you never know!), I couldn't justify coming up there just to have a look around. Incidentally, just had a look at your ebay shop and can't see any cars for sale? Because I like my gadgets, from what you've explained, it sounds like an early facelift model, 1999 or 2000 could be a good buy because it would come with most of the toys as standard? You've answered ALL my questions so comprehensively that I can't think of anything else to ask right now (but it will no doubt come to me)! Thank you VERY much, really appreciated, being as knowledgeable and helpful as you are, you're actually influencing my decision process - I'm swaying more towards an S8 than I was before! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vladman Posted April 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Oh, yes, just remembered one more thing I meant to ask? So before 2002 there's no Sports mode? Hmm, that'd be nice to have, but was kind of thinking of a 2000/2001 car ideally, to dodge the crazy new road tax pricing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IT_S8 Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Oh, yes, just remembered one more thing I meant to ask? So before 2002 there's no Sports mode? Hmm, that'd be nice to have, but was kind of thinking of a 2000/2001 car ideally, to dodge the crazy new road tax pricing... Thats correct - Before 2002 you dont have sports mode on the gearbox, but all A8 gearboxes are a dynamic shift pattern, which in laymans terms means it will adjust to your driving - If you hammer it hard enough, it will adapt and drive sportier anyway. Its just that after 2002 you can skip the winding up process and get it dancing along instantly... We have 2 S8's in at the moment, we tend to us Autotrader more than Ebay for them though as we find there is better coverage.... Glad we're swaying you, its the sensible choice really.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser647 Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Thats correct - Before 2002 you dont have sports mode on the gearbox, but all A8 gearboxes are a dynamic shift pattern, which in laymans terms means it will adjust to your driving - If you hammer it hard enough, it will adapt and drive sportier anyway. Its just that after 2002 you can skip the winding up process and get it dancing along instantly... We have 2 S8's in at the moment, we tend to us Autotrader more than Ebay for them though as we find there is better coverage.... Glad we're swaying you, its the sensible choice really.... I think the gearboxes of all the D2's could be changed to Sport mode. You have to change it with VAG-Com. Botang and a few others have done it. Some have changed it back as it was too sensitive to kick-down a few cogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vladman Posted April 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 Two more things, if you guys don't mind... What's the audio like on these cars? Were there several variations, such as standard and "premium", etc? Do they come with a subwoofer (as standard/option)? A really good sound is important to me... And the other thing, if anyone could advise on this (it may have gotten overlooked in my torrent of questions ): So if I got it right, "tiptronic" means either stick or button manual shifting, with buttons being introduced on facelift models in 1999?How responsive is the gearbox to these manual shifts? Does it do it swiftly and smoothly, or does it take its time, and sometimes refuse to do what you're asking of it (like some other autos)? Thanks as ever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vladman Posted April 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 I hope I haven't used up my newbie quota of questions! Would be really grateful if one of you could advise (on my previous questions, regarding audio and tiptronic and manual shifting). Many thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IT_S8 Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 I hope I haven't used up my newbie quota of questions! Would be really grateful if one of you could advise (on my previous questions, regarding audio and tiptronic and manual shifting). Many thanks! Nope, sorry, you just caught us all napping i think There were several head units, from the combination Nav plus with Sat Nav, 5" screen etc, down to more simple Cd players etc. Its my personal opinion that the dedicated audio does deliver a better sound than the Nav plus, but I'd never actually opt for the dedicated units as I need the Navigation more ! Otherwise you have the regular sound system, or the Bose upgraded sound to consider. At a modest listening volume there isnt a great deal of difference to anything other than the well trained ear, but start to turn the volume up a bit and the Bose will win hands down for clarity and seperation. The true audiophiles here will argue that the Bose can be improved on further still, and I dont doubt it. Either way, the front doors hold the main subwoofers in the form of two speakers with quite deep bass boxes that run half the length of the door. The parcel shelf gives some Bass, but its an open system so no real bass punch there. Bose has a dedicated seperate amp in the boot, where the non bose uses the headunit to drive the front speakers, and the rear speakers are driven by tiny amps that sit within the speakers themselves. Both systems have seperate wiring looms to the rest of the car and run in such a way as to avoid crossing other wires within the car and picking up interference. We can retrofit Bose to a normal car, but its labour intensive as all seats and carpet needs to come out to change the audio wiring loom, so easiest to get a car with it already fitted, but we're happy to help if not. Re gearbox - Changes are reasonably quick, on tiptronic mode it is quickest and can give you the sporty feel. It does however adhere to rules about under/over revving so it wont let you do anything too silly, and it will also change gear for you if you rev too high. Hope that helps.... Check out the meet in May that is being arranged, there will be a whole bunch of us there, and I'm sure several folks will be happy to let you have a good nosey round their cars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser647 Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 Audio - Not sure, but the lower 8's had the option of Bose in the earlier versions. Bose had the bass-box in the boot somewhere. Good sound on the S8 - you have 360 fine horses making a great sound (especially if your fit a 4 exit crossover custom exhaust for <£1K) Tiptronic? yep, on facelift models, you could use the buttons on the steering wheel and/or the gear selector. The gearbox will refuse to change gear IF you are being a muppet by trying to shift down instead of up at 6K+ rpm. The shifts are pretty instant - even my A6 has fast Tip shifts. Before you do that, you will need to chagne your gearbox ATF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vladman Posted April 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 Thank you guys. So, basically, any audio system, even the standard one, sounds pretty good, and has subwoofers in the front doors? cruiser647, sorry, but i didn't understand what you meant by your last sentence... :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser647 Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 A8 gearboxes (or at least so far the earlier 5 spd jobs) are a known weak point on the A8. The gearbox fluid 'should' be chagned every 40K miles, but it hardly ever is, as it was not in the schedule. Best practice for as soon as you buy one is to get the gearbox fluid and little swarf magnets in the gearbox pan changed/cleaned ASAP. It will prolong the life of your gearbox. The fluid comes out black, and the same, but new fluid goes in a silvery/gold colour. There are many posts on here about tales of woe with gearboxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figure11 Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 vladman, Don't get spooked about the 5 speed box. It gives plenty of notice that it wants a fluid change if you know what to listen/look for and ATF changing will extend the boxes life considerably. If you find a car and the owner has ATF change history then they know what they are talking about. If they haven't and the box shows no symptoms then you have a barganing point. For symptoms see this link here In a nutshell, if it squeals on start up, you get a shunt on overrun as you are decelerating between 50 and 60, even the smallest amount, you know it's time to change the ATF and filter. I got the squealing and a mild shunting, changed the ATF and now have a very smooth box!!! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vladman Posted April 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 thanks for that figure11. now, ummm, uh... but what does "atf" stand for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figure11 Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 thanks for that figure11.now, ummm, uh... but what does "atf" stand for? Automatic Transmission Fluid Have you thought of buying a tricycle. Low maintanance, dosn't need stabiliser wheels (ESP) Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vladman Posted April 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2008 Automatic Transmission Fluid Thanks! Have you thought of buying a tricycle. Low maintanance, dosn't need stabiliser wheels (ESP) Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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