Paddles or Gear Stick for DSG

[jhibbin]

On my first long run in the GTI today I got to wondering which I liked best for changing gear in manual mode the paddles or the gear stick.

During first 2 weeks I ignored the gear stick option entirely and enjoyed the novelty of the paddles. F1 style shifting on winding b-roads can be loads of fun. Away from the b-roads the paddles are less great I find and hopeless once the stearing wheel goes past 90 deg.

The gear stick gives you that more mechanical feel to the gear shift, although I would prefer + and - to be reversed. Just seems more logical to me to push the lever forward to change down. Isn't this the way racing boxes are setup??

Thought I would poll to see what TSN collective DSG owners think on this.

[mikemod]

Forward for + and back for - seems logical to me.

When you want to go faster you push forward and when you want to go slower you pull back . It's the same as all standard automatics so I'm sure VW didn't want to confuse people.

[RedRobin]

'VW way' on the stick. But I hardly ever use the stick to change gear.

Having recently done the CarLimits course I now always hold the steering wheel with both hands and at 'quarter to three' position which happens to be where the paddles are .

[CMC950]

I picked up my car on Saturday and have done 550 miles so far! I'll do a full write up tomorrow, but early indications are that you are right on the money on both counts Hibbsy!

I find the stick infinately more pleasurable and involving than the paddles, that already seeming to be a bit unecessary in my book. If they were bigger, it would be different, but even at quarter-to-three, which is how I drive, I find them to far in behind the wheel and the actual action is a bit too tame. Doesn't feel err, right.

The stick is a blast, but I too agree that the action is back to front. I've driven various race and track cars with sequential boxes and you are right, its the other way round. It its purely electronic, perhaps its within the realms of possibility to get it changed.

What I want more than anything however, is a setting on highline where the cog you are in is displayed as a big character right in the middle of that screen...

[RedRobin]

[ QUOTE ]

What I want more than anything however, is a setting on highline where the cog you are in is displayed as a big character right in the middle of that screen...

[/ QUOTE ]

....Regardless of paddles or stick, you are so right about this! Even with hearing the engine revs with Millteks it can sometimes be tricky to know what gear you are in.

[OzGTI]

I tend to use the paddles for up changes but the stick for coming down through the gears.

I like using the stick because it makes me feel a little more connected with the car - old manual habits dying hard I guess.

I think the biggest negative with the DSG is the lack of certainity as to which gear you are in. It only happens occasionally now but I hate having to refer to the screen. While bigger numbers on the computer or a louder exhaust (millteks as standard maybe) might help the only way to really solve this IMHO is to have a gated manual selection - I can't see an H gate working but what would be wrong with a line line gate - some brands have them for their outos - maybe Merc, Subaru and I'm sure others?

I've just thought of why that might be difficult to do - switching from the auto to manual function, so I'll keep working on tha idea.

[ajw]

[ QUOTE ]

The gear stick gives you that more mechanical feel to the gear shift, although I would prefer + and - to be reversed. Just seems more logical to me to push the lever forward to change down. Isn't this the way racing boxes are setup??

[/ QUOTE ]

Apart from being that way in a race car can someone explain with logical answers why it make more sense to push forward to go down a gear.

It makes sense to me the way VW have done it.

[nutkins]

Maybe to do with G-force. You're being thrown forward when you break and pushed backwards when acclerating. I would prefer it the 'Non VW' way given the choice.

[JonoNZ]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

What I want more than anything however, is a setting on highline where the cog you are in is displayed as a big character right in the middle of that screen...

[/ QUOTE ]

....Regardless of paddles or stick, you are so right about this! Even with hearing the engine revs with Millteks it can sometimes be tricky to know what gear you are in.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Alfa 147 Selespeed I had used this method in the display area (a big numeral with the current gear shown on the MFD).

I can confirm it is something I miss in the GTI.

[stevie_d]

I use the paddles when driving hard, but like the stick when cruising as (like other people have said) you feel more "attached" to the car, the paddles can be a bit computer gamey imho.

I've never had a problem realising what gear I'm in though, although I've been taught (by the police) to do cycles: look forward, look in rear view mirror, check dash, look forward etc. This means that I look at my dash at least every ten seconds anyway, I was taught that you should do this (especially when making progress) to check your speed, rpm and warning lights.

Plus when I'm really pressing on I mentally count the gears, just as I would in a manual, infact this is something they made me do during my commentary and I've got used to it.

[evosapper]

Yeah come on guys, you don't need to know which gear you are in as a number, you should just match the rev's to the input required by the right foot and hands to get where you want to be in the best possible speed. I too have been fortunate to spend a three week period with the Police learning how to actually drive rather than pass a test!

[CMC950]

[ QUOTE ]

I use the paddles when driving hard, but like the stick when cruising as (like other people have said) you feel more "attached" to the car, the paddles can be a bit computer gamey imho.

I've never had a problem realising what gear I'm in though, although I've been taught (by the police) to do cycles: look forward, look in rear view mirror, check dash, look forward etc. This means that I look at my dash at least every ten seconds anyway, I was taught that you should do this (especially when making progress) to check your speed, rpm and warning lights.

Plus when I'm really pressing on I mentally count the gears, just as I would in a manual, infact this is something they made me do during my commentary and I've got used to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[mikemod]

I dont think it is a VW thing as Auto gearboxes from other manufacturers use this method except the SMG gearbox in the M3 which I think is the other way round.

Must say I use the paddles all the time anyway so am not that concerned.

A big number in the middle of the display indicating what gear you are in would be nice. The fact you can't hear the engine at low revs I have found myself driving along in fourth. Maybe I just need those Millteks

[RedRobin]

The Millteks help but you only really hear the engine revs enough when the engine is 'working'. My vote is strongly for a big number display. It's the same re the speedo - It's visually much too busy and the numerals are too small, consequently I use my Road Angel to see my speed (much more accurate anyway).

[CMC950]

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah come on guys, you don't need to know which gear you are in as a number, you should just match the rev's to the input required by the right foot and hands to get where you want to be in the best possible speed. I too have been fortunate to spend a three week period with the Police learning how to actually drive rather than pass a test!

[/ QUOTE ]

Mate, not to burst your bubble, but there's a bit more to driving cars quickly, than what your told on a police course. For a start, DSG doesn't always give you the changes you ask for (particularly several down changes from high speed into a slow corner) and it also makes the odd down change itself at slower speed.

Knowing what gear you are in visually is as important as seeing what revs you are in visually. I thought you were trained to check the revs every 10 seconds... even tho you can hear them?

Perhaps you are driving quickly in the wet, esp off, and to minimise understeer on exit, you wish to grap 4th instead of 3rd. Well, by your rational, if you only need to hear it, then you wouldn't find out until you stepped on the loud peddle - and in the wet that could be an understeery off the road moment if the car was still in 3rd. If your going quick, in certain situations you need to know what gear you are in, believe me.

Question. I've not used sport mode yet (only done 500 miles) but am I correct in saying that this is paddles only? What the hell is the point of that then seeing as the manual mode appears to use the whole of the rev range? Isn't sport mode effectively a 'turn stick shift off' mode? Pointless...

[RedRobin]

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah come on guys, you don't need to know which gear you are in as a number, you should just match the rev's to the input required by the right foot and hands to get where you want to be in the best possible speed. I too have been fortunate to spend a three week period with the Police learning how to actually drive rather than pass a test!

[/ QUOTE ]

....I think that this applies more to a manual car and not DSG.

[RedRobin]

[ QUOTE ]

Question. I've not used sport mode yet (only done 500 miles) but am I correct in saying that this is paddles only? What the hell is the point of that then seeing as the manual mode appears to use the whole of the rev range? Isn't sport mode effectively a 'turn stick shift off' mode? Pointless...

[/ QUOTE ]

....I find S-mode extremely useful when overtaking on fast but narrow B-roads (for example) - Any situation where you need both hands on the wheel and can let the DSG give you the right gear according to how you use your feet. It's almost possible to shift gears with your feet!

I too count when paddle shifting. Quite honestly, regardless of what the police say, I don't even want to glance at small instrument readouts when driving hard on some roads around here - My eyes are needed 100% on the road and I need to hear the engine and feel the car. That police rear-view mirror stuff applies more to M'ways and open A-roads or when driving slower.

I'm a great fan of S-mode - One less thing to be concerned about and leaving you to concentrate on other aspects of driving in today's road environments.

[nbetts]

I think the stick shift (not that I use it a lot I must add) should most definitely be forward for down the gears and back for up the gears.

The reason is this is following the momentum of the car... i.e. you are thrown forward when decelerating - thus a lower gear and likewise you are thrown back when accelerating therefore higher gear.

[stevie_d]

RR> I do see where you're coming from mate, but the police roadcraft needs to be fully applied when you're "making progress".

Several of the nice roads I go on are used by bikers and whilst I maybe doing 80mph and feel like I'm going fast, they could be doing 120mph...Therefore when you goto cut the next corner you realise "oh bugger, I've just killed a motorcyclist".

Progressive driving is all about knowing what is around you, not just in front. Unlike track day driving (where I'd concentrate mainly in front of the car) you have to be aware of all kinds of dangers. Obviously you only check your dash and rear view mirror when safe to do so, I'd never advise people to avert their attention when going round a sharp corner. But the whole basis of advanced police driving (I'm not talking about panda car levels here) is that you slow everything down to speed up. i.e. you're aware of the corners ahead, you are aware of the other roads users around you and this allows you to take proactive action rather than reactive.

On the notion of the gears: I use D when warming the car up/down (or in town/traffic/motorway etc), the paddles on normal roads or when "making progress" and I only use S mode when I'm really going for it. I like the feature that if you're in D you can over-ride the auto box by using the paddles

On another issue: has anyone found the kick-down sensor? The accelerator will only travel so far with "normal" pressure, yet (even in manual) if you then push down a little further you'll hear a small click and the box will change down a couple of gears. Good idea, but it confused me the first time it happened

[nhs]

Many Auto boxes have a "Drive" and "Sport" mode, where the change down occurs at different revs.

CMC950 - the Sport mode is fully automatic, however as with the Drive mode, you can use your paddles at any time and the box will do what you have "told it" - provided the electronics don't think it will break the car! Once you've paddled, the car remains in paddle mode for around 30 seconds or until you turn it back to auto mode by holding the "off" paddle for around two seconds.

You can practice this with the "D" setting anyway while it's running in.

This is part of what makes the DSG such a great box and so versatile that you can take over control at any time and change gear and hold it - such as changing down into a corner or holding a gear prior to an overtake....

The DSG box changes are quick and clean - unlike the surge you'd get with an old style torque converter box

[CMC950]

But if I am only ever going to change the gears myself, there is actually no difference between D and S mode, apart from the inability to stick shift in S, correct? (This assumes that I will have grabbed a gear, up or down, before the auto would have).

Sorry to make this painfuilly clear but if the car will still readline in manual mode, so its basically the same as S, no more power available or anything, but with NO chance that the car will perform an auto change, then I'll never use the S. I'm just not interested in fully automatic changes, appart from in heavy traffic.

[CMC950]

What dissapoints me, given that electronics control everything, is that there are not more settable preferences with DSG.

I'd like to be able to:

1. Have the big gear number showing on the computer

2. Swap the tiptronic round

3. Disconnect the paddles

4. Disable any over-ride gear changes from the car (such as to 1 at standstill)

5. Disengage kickdown.

Having said that, its still the best thing about the car, unbelieveable in fact!

[stevie_d]

CMC950:

There are two main modes to the DSG box; manual and automatic. Manual is reached by moving the DSG level over from D towards the passenger door. This means you can use the paddles or the gear lever to manually change gear. However the gearbox will still restrict you in what you can do; i.e. it will change up at the red line and change down when the engine is about to stall.

The automode consists of two settings; D is the relaxed cruising setting and will change up as soon as it can. It will still allow for brisk acceleration, but isn't ideal for overtaking as it can take a second to decide which gear you need. S mode is sport mode, still completely automatic, but the gearbox will hold onto to gear for longer whilst accelerating and change down quicker. In both auto modes you can still use the paddles to over-ride the box.

[nhs]

The main difference between D and S is how long it holds in first on starting - S is more fun and car/manual like

The "Stick" manual option is still not completely manual and yes, it is like S or D with manual inputs.

The electronics try to make sure you don't break the engine/box by changing at high revs automatically, and by changing down when you decellerate.

And it does this on the stick too.....

[CMC950]

In manual mode I don't mind the fact that it changes up at the readline or down before it stalls, as I would have already changed up or down anyway, so I will never notice the automatic override....

So in summary:

S mode is an auto, programmed to change at the redline, with paddle override.

D mode is an auto, programed to change at low revs, with paddle override.

M mode is a clutchless manual, operated by stick or paddles, with an auto-overide programmed to change gear in emergency situations (such as when the car might stall).

Therefore, I still don't see much difference between Sport and Manual modes in that the Manual mode will change automatically at the redline (same as sport).

I can now see where the difference is with D however.