help me to improve the handling

[skanky]

its time for me to start looking at looking at improving the handling of the car, i have a 1999 150bhp A3 1.8t sport around 68k miles.

so far all i've done is changed the standard 16" competiton alloys for 17" avus alloys with eagle f1's running 32F/36R and am in the process of getting a 312mm front brake kit installed.

i am unsure whether the previous owner has replaced any other parts prior to me getting the car, probably not so assume its still running the standard suspension parts etc.

based on the mods i've done, i'd like the car to (in no particular order):

-be slightly lowered so theres less space between arch and tyre (i understand the sport suspension is already lower than standard) but no so much that i scrape the LCR lip or my wheels start rubbing the arches.

-reduce body roll and understeer when cornering (upper/lower strut braces?).

-reduce nose diving under braking.

-be able to drive around in some comfort.

are there any parts that probably would have worn out and need replacing by now? i understand that the cambelt is recommended to be changed around the 75k mark, is there anything like that suspension-wise that i should be aware of?

also, im quite a newb when it comes to cars in general, i've seen the terms: "coilovers, shocks, arb, dogbone mount, powerflex bushes, lowering springs" all mentioned on this forum and others, but i have no idea what any of them are for! for example, why would i buy the "powerflex front kit" (from www.powerflex.co.uk) what will it give me over the standard part(s) it replaces??

so, can someone suggest what i would need and what the hit on my wallet would likely be?

i dont think i can fork out for the most expensive stuff (heard KW coilovers are mega expensive, whatever they do!), it is *only* an 1.8T after all, if i wanted to go to town on mods, i'd start with a better base car like a RS4 but i do realise that im not going to be able to get change from a tenner given what needs to be potentially done.

..at the end of the day i want the car to handle better as opposed to looking nicer due to being super lower or anything like that.

thanks.

[shao_khan]

Hi,

Basically with replacement suspension you have uprated replacement where you just replace the stock suspension with something like Koni / Eiback / Bilstein components, this will give huge improvements in handling and with soem kits adjustable damping to give you a feel you are happy with. Ride height likley to be lowere 30mm - 50mm.

Coilovers basically take it a step further allowing huge drops in ride height so you get a sporty ride as above but the ability to adjust the damping and ride height - most kits anything from 30mm - 100mm. As an example my Beelte was low enough so that you couldnt fit a coke can under it but it didnt need to slow down around corners. (picture of wheel arch gap http://www.woofdoggy.com/New_Folder/Compcentre001.JPG)

YOu get what you pay for, FK kits are good but mostly alloy and they corrode very quickly unless looked after very well, KW is all stainless and doesnt suffer this problem.

You can change the Anti Roll bars - this is a good thing to do if you are uprating the suspension as it all fites together as a package, ARBs arent very expensive to buy but provide worthwhile benefits.

The powerflex bushes basically replace the stock oem rubber bushes with polyurethane (sp) alternatives, this will give you in general a huge increase in road noise and stiffness as they have a lot less flex than the rubber you are replacing.

Hope that helps a little

[skanky]

very useful info (for me at least), ta.

had a look at the eibach sportline springs: http://www.europerformance.co.uk/pages/products/product_info.mhtml?id=28256

..and it says "Please Note: If you are lowering your car by more than 40mm short shocks are required"

What are "short shocks" and which ones are recommended/not horribly expensive?

Also which kit would be i looking to get:

- Audi A3 09/96 - 04/03 1.6,1.8, 1.8T,1.9 TDI (front axle 950 kg rear axle 1000kg)

- Audi A3 09/96 - 04/03 1.6,1.8, 1.8T,1.9 TDI (front axle 1000 kg rear axle 1000kg)

the only difference is the one is 950kg and one is 1000kg, whats the diff?

[RedRobin]

[ QUOTE ]

i'd like the car to (in no particular order):

-be slightly lowered so theres less space between arch and tyre (i understand the sport suspension is already lower than standard) but no so much that i scrape the LCR lip or my wheels start rubbing the arches.

-reduce body roll and understeer when cornering (upper/lower strut braces?).

-reduce nose diving under braking.

-be able to drive around in some comfort.

..at the end of the day i want the car to handle better as opposed to looking nicer due to being super lower or anything like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

....Considering all of the above desires, it seems to me that you want exactly what I have got on My Mk5 GTI. Incidentally, SK is spot on imo about further options. So:

- Koni FSD dampers/shocks will instantly and automatically adapt their hardness to the road surface and therefore give comfort as well as hardness. They require (very important) appropriate springs such as Eibach Pro-Kit which will lower the car but only about 10mm max, but road use needs to be practical imo.

- Anti-Roll Bars (I use Eibach) together with the above, will kill nose dive and keep the car much flatter planted.

I don't know how effective my suggestions would be on your Audi, but my passengers make uninvited positive comments on my handling/ride.

Slamming down the car looks super-cool but personally I couldn't live with the practical hassles of bumps, ramps etc. I don't see the point of adjustable suspension such as the very excellent Bilstein unless you do track days.

Koni FSD Info

HTH

[shao_khan]

Springs are the cheapest way to alter the look of your car - but they can make the ride (IMO) a bit unsettled as they are not well matched to the dampers - so it can be a bit uncomfortable in certain road conditions with bounce / rebound.

I would look for a kit - what RR recommended has some great reviews, in the past I have used Koni dampers with H&R springs which also gave a vast imrpovement.

As for the diferent kits - if I am honest I'd have expected the heavier one for the oilburner as they are usually slightly heavier - but as it lists all options I cant help

[skanky]

[ QUOTE ]

- Koni FSD dampers/shocks will instantly and automatically adapt their hardness to the road surface and therefore give comfort as well as hardness. They require (very important) appropriate springs such as Eibach Pro-Kit which will lower the car but only about 10mm max, but road use needs to be practical imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

the koni fsd's sound ideal, how much should i wanting/able to be lowering a 1.8t sport by?

[shao_khan]

How low really depends on you - how low do you fancy?

The beetle with coilovers had very few problems - would catch the odd stone chipping in the road and some undulations would scrape as well - but it wasnt too bad - that was only 50mm drop.

I think 30mm is a good drop, but thats just me - as I said above it really depends how you want it to look as well.

[RedRobin]

The extent of lowering will be determined by the spring which is appropriate for Koni FSDs on your car. It's not a matter of user's choice but what allows the FSDs to perform at their best.

I don't know if AwesomeGTI could advise you on your A3 but they run a heavily modded Audi S4 Avant and Audi TT and they are extremely helpful. Phone 0161 776 0777

Firstly, you would need to find out if Koni produce their FSD for the A3.

[skanky]

when getting new springs and when it says something it lowers by 30mm, does that take into account that the sport is already a bit lower than standard suspension and lowers an extra 30mm from what the base height would be, or the sport height.

if that makes sense.

would this would be the sort of koni FSD i would be after:

http://www.europerformance.co.uk/pages/products/product_info.mhtml?id=338112

..it doesnt mention model specifics (ie quattro, 1.6 etc) but seems to be for the 8L series..

[skanky]

[ QUOTE ]

....Considering all of the above desires, it seems to me that you want exactly what I have got on My Mk5 GTI. Incidentally, SK is spot on imo about further options. So:

- Koni FSD dampers/shocks will instantly and automatically adapt their hardness to the road surface and therefore give comfort as well as hardness. They require (very important) appropriate springs such as Eibach Pro-Kit which will lower the car but only about 10mm max, but road use needs to be practical imo.

- Anti-Roll Bars (I use Eibach) together with the above, will kill nose dive and keep the car much flatter planted.

[/ QUOTE ]

if i got the springs/fsd installed without a new anti-roll bar, what would i be missing out on?

eventually i would but it all comes down to what i can afford..

[shao_khan]

The arb just to helps stiffen the car and help to keep it 'flat' through corners I guess is the best description - doesnt all need doing at the same time, just if you want to keep upgrading and how much you want to spend.

Look around and get soem prices - I think Venom were sellling kits of FK coilovers and roll bars for under £500 a while back, prices will vary so worth lookign around.

[skanky]

whats the consequence of a "corroded FK coilover"?

sk: you mentioned that an advantage of coilovers is that you can adjust height/dampening whenever you need, but not "on-the-fly" like a koni fsd+springs, correct?

what will upper/lower strut braces bring into the equation?

[shao_khan]

The problem with ehe alloys FKs I had is that the alloy corrodes in our salty winters. They are ok, but it usually meant jacking the car up, cleaning them down and greasing them to keep the salt off of them - just time rather than anything else - obviously with stainless then this shouldnt happen.

Coilovers do not adjust on the fly (maybe there are some that do, but not that Ive noticed), but the advantage is that you can have a pretty soft almost stock ride, but reduce the height by say 60MM, where as the Koni stuff doesnt do this, as RR said you get a ride drop from the springs used and thats it. You'll find a lot of cars in the shows have coilovers for real low at shows.

Any kind of brace stiffens the car and reduces flex, this all equates to improvement in handling, but there is a point where you need to assess your uses I guess. I mean if you plan on a few track days then braces and arbs will help you out a lot while you learn and help reduce body roll, etc with fast corners. In day to day road use, not sure how much benefit you get from braces tbh.

[RedRobin]

skanky > I think it best to clarify that SK and myself are talking about slightly different systems. In response to your stated comfort requirement, I'm recommending Koni FSDs and SK is giving you info about user-adjustable coilover systems.

I think that adjusting height/damping yourself means you need access to either a pit or a workshop lift. Or can it be done from the top under the bonnet?

Why don't you phone AwesomeGTI as well.

[RedRobin]

It comes down to what skanky wants to achieve for how he uses his car.

[skanky]

[ QUOTE ]

but the advantage is that you can have a pretty soft almost stock ride, but reduce the height by say 60MM, where as the Koni stuff doesnt do this

[/ QUOTE ]

but if i was going to get new lower springs then the above point isnt applicable anymore?

could i get away with koni fsd's first, then at a later time, lower springs? or is it best to get both done in one go?

[skanky]

[ QUOTE ]

skanky > I think it best to clarify that SK and myself are talking about slightly different systems.

[/ QUOTE ]

i understand, its that as mentioned in my original post, i know next to nothing about how all this works so any info is good info.

[RedRobin]

[ QUOTE ]

could i get away with koni fsd's first, then at a later time, lower springs? or is it best to get both done in one go?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's very, very important that you ONLY use a recommended as appropriate spring with Koni FSD shocks/dampers. So you MUST fit FSDs and correct springs together. To do otherwise could easily result in a serious accident.

The FSDs are good enough to be stock for the McLaren, Guillardo, and Mercedes supercars. They are for high performance road use rather than hardcore track.

[skanky]

are koni's with eibach pro-kit or sportline an "appropriate" combination to use?

any better springs out there? or as good as eibach but a little cheaper?

[RedRobin]

Eibach Pro-Kit are the ones to use with Koni FSD, not Sportline.

"Better springs"? - Eibach are considered one of the very best. Bilstein are top notch but also a top price! I don't know how Koni springs compare. H&R are another spring (SiBurt has those with Koni FSD on his 266 bhp GTI) - None of these are especially cheap. You get what you pay for generally with manufactured components.

[Soundwave]

I've got a H&R coilover kit fitted to my A6 and the ride and handling are vastly improved over the oem stuff.

I wouldn't go too low though because when R-Tec fitted mine they asked me how low do I wanna go. I said '..all the way..' and boy was it a mistake.

It looked evil, bit like a euro dtm style tourer and the handling was crazy, I could go round corners at almost any speed, BUT, OMFG - I simply couldn't go down certain roads anymore, the ride was rock hard and I simply couldn't go over speed bumbs, I'd just get beached. It was about an inch or two off the ground with the wheels right under the arches, you couldn't even see the tyres and frankly was pretty ridiculous for everyday driving.

So I took the car back to R-Tec who charged me £15 a corner to have it raised up a bit. Now the wheels just fill the arches nicely, with the tyres level with the arches.

Now the handling is absolutely spot on. Silky smooth, with nice damping, awesome handling and I can safely navigate over any speed bumbs without a problem.

So the moral of the story is - Yes, I'd recommend H&R coilovers, but don't go too low because it'll just be silly for everyday driving. Besides, i'm not too sure how much room you'd have to play with in the arches on an A3. I was a bit spoilt with the A6, 19" wheels and all the way down, and there was still room to swing a cat (ok, a small one)

[skanky]

given all the info in this thread (ta very much), i think the best thing to do is go for the koni fsd's with eibach springs.

it would be nice to be able to change various settings with a coilover kit but the FSD's ability to adapt is a major plus in my eyes given one of my priorities was to be able to drive around in some comfort.

all i have to do now is figure out exactly how much i want it lowered by.

[RedRobin]

[ QUOTE ]

given all the info in this thread (ta very much), i think the best thing to do is go for the koni fsd's with eibach springs.

it would be nice to be able to change various settings with a coilover kit but the FSD's ability to adapt is a major plus in my eyes given one of my priorities was to be able to drive around in some comfort.

all i have to do now is figure out exactly how much i want it lowered by.

[/ QUOTE ]

No! No! You haven't quite understood. Fitting Koni FSD will NOT give you any choice about how low. If you were to go too low, they wouldn't work properly and would upset the car's balance very badly if not dangerously.

[skanky]

right, seems like i wasnt looking carefully enough, i was looking here: http://www.europerformance.co.uk/pages/p...;sub_category=1 for eibach springs, and thought that these were all the options i had as they all have varying amounts that they lower by.

what i didnt take note of the fact that only one of the first one is suitable for a 1.8t, which seems to be front 30mm, rear 25mm.

*slaps self for not paying enough attention*

doh!

[RedRobin]

Do phone AwesomeGTI - They are very helpful in advising, especially Andy and Dean.