RedRobin Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 ....Hence the brilliant lunacy . By the light of the silvery moon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpullen Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The fact that Jim Clark died on the track doesn't mean he wasn't a good enough driver. I've seen him race many times and imo he was good. A brilliant lunatic? - This is a different thread topic. [/ QUOTE ] As an aside Jim Clark died in Hockenheim, Germany during a pretty uninportant F2 race when he lost control on a damp track and hit a tree at 140mph. Bring that forward 39 years and not only would he have lived but no doubt gone back and got the spare car. Such is the advancement in safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zharca Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Hi, no, that's not quite right. Each force appears to have its own guidelines which vary a bit but are broadly similar. The use of lights/sirens etc. isn't mandatory in an emergency and discression's allowed in their use. The Home office interpretation of when section 87 can be invoked is very clearly "emergency", but a number of the force guidelines actually say "incident or emergency". I think this is actually very sensible wording because it protects the officers. "Emergency" has a definite legal definition and so an officer who, for example, sees an apparent crime happening and gives chase isn't responding to an emergency because it's still an "incident". But no-one says that section 87 can apply just because you are a trained policemen driving a police car. I'm convinced that in this case, we have someone trying to use his warrant card to justify a dangerous joy ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpullen Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 [ QUOTE ] Hi, no, that's not quite right. Each force appears to have its own guidelines which vary a bit but are broadly similar. The use of lights/sirens etc. isn't mandatory in an emergency and discression's allowed in their use. The Home office interpretation of when section 87 can be invoked is very clearly "emergency", but a number of the force guidelines actually say "incident or emergency". I think this is actually very sensible wording because it protects the officers. "Emergency" has a definite legal definition and so an officer who, for example, sees an apparent crime happening and gives chase isn't responding to an emergency because it's still an "incident". But no-one says that section 87 can apply just because you are a trained policemen driving a police car. I'm convinced that in this case, we have someone trying to use his warrant card to justify a dangerous joy ride. [/ QUOTE ] If I may can I play devils advocate for a second. The opinion amongst many on here is that if you may exceed the speed limit/red lights etc only if you are on a bona fide emergency call. Fair comment. Perhaps you can explain away the escorting of large/dangerous loads by police and the escort of VIP's (in it's broadest term) no emergency there but plenty of traffic offences.........? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Was anyone injured in this "incident/emergency/case"? So, what's the problem? - They might have been? All sorts of things might have been. Whether he was justified or not, right or wrong, etc, what bugs me about this case is not what he did but that so many people would form a lynch mob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mb Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 [ QUOTE ] Perhaps you can explain away the escorting of large/dangerous loads by police and the escort of VIP's (in it's broadest term) no emergency there but plenty of traffic offences.........? [/ QUOTE ] Are dangerous loads/VIPs etc. reported to the control room/logged etc. ? If so they are police business & fit perfectly well with the "broke the law but was justified" defence. Was this chap's "test drive" reported to the control room/logged etc. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mb Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 [ QUOTE ] Was anyone injured in this "incident/emergency/case"? So, what's the problem? - They might have been? All sorts of things might have been. Whether he was justified or not, right or wrong, etc, what bugs me about this case is not what he did but that so many people would form a lynch mob. [/ QUOTE ] I think the outrage is because we can all see that his behaviour (regardless of skills/training etc.) was dangerous, most of us have also probably been to court & had the book thrown at us for doing just 10% of what he did and so there is a real sense of injustice. The rule of law implies that no person or body, however powerful, can break the law with impunity (from the Maastricht treaty) once this stops eventually you end up with a lynch mob... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpullen Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Was anyone injured in this "incident/emergency/case"? So, what's the problem? - They might have been? All sorts of things might have been. Whether he was justified or not, right or wrong, etc, what bugs me about this case is not what he did but that so many people would form a lynch mob. [/ QUOTE ] I think the outrage is because we can all see that his behaviour (regardless of skills/training etc.) was dangerous, most of us have also probably been to court & had the book thrown at us for doing just 10% of what he did and so there is a real sense of injustice. The rule of law implies that no person or body, however powerful, can break the law with impunity (from the Maastricht treaty) once this stops eventually you end up with a lynch mob... [/ QUOTE ] Good point well made. As I said in previous posts the speed was well above what I would drive at in ANY circumstances. It's the Vectra bit that staggers me, our old Senators and V8 SD1's could just puff through the 100 mark with a following wind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D1MAC Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 [ QUOTE ] It's the Vectra bit that staggers me, our old Senators and V8 SD1's could just puff through the 100 mark with a following wind! [/ QUOTE ] I think it's a little surprising to everyone Are the engines likely to have been naughtyfied in any way? A Vectra VXR with anywhere between 256bhp and 276bhp is supposed to do somewhere in the 160-165 region, depending on which strength you have and whether its a good day or not. Thing is, IIRC, this wasn't a VXR but would have been a boggo 3.2 GSI with 211 bhp and a claimed (but always rather generous) 154 top whack. If out mate was ever to get the chop, he could go and work for Vauxhall since he can manage what they can't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesB Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Maybe they hadn't calibrated their speed camera properly that day? Actually, I wonder who grassed him up. It was footage from an in-car camera, so surely one of his colleagues must have looked at it and decided to report him when they could have turned a blind eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpullen Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 [ QUOTE ] Are the engines likely to have been naughtyfied in any way? A Vectra VXR with anywhere between 256bhp and 276bhp is supposed to do somewhere in the 160-165 region, depending on which strength you have and whether its a good day or not. Thing is, IIRC, this wasn't a VXR but would have been a boggo 3.2 GSI with 211 bhp and a claimed (but always rather generous) 154 top whack. [/ QUOTE ] They are pretty much bog standard, brake fluid is changed and pads might be a slightly higher spec, but generally they are just the same as you could buy. I have driven Ford Cosworths straight from Ford that had the edge on what we later bought. But with all the equipment and a brick on the roof for the lights they aren't as swift as you may think. I assume the Vectra is a straight forward front wheel drive? that's an awfull lot of power going through those drive shafts! I imagine the torque steer is pretty interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D1MAC Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Hmm - surprised about that. I could understand the Cossies as turbo cars can vary a bit depending on conditions and whether you have a good one but N/As are usually on the money at best and more often a bit down. As an example, a healthy but std Focus ST could put out anywhere up to 240bhp+ (supposedly 222bhp) but suffers badly on hot days as the intercooler is allegedly . I haven't driven a Vectra (VXR anyway) but apparently it copes somewhere between pretty decent (Evo) and dreadfully (VX loving J.Clarkson esq). I would imagine that like most of the more powerful front drivers, torque is limited in 1st, 2cnd and sometimes 3rd - Focus ST has this and it is noticeable when you need a smart getaway or use 4th in any anger (not THAT far removed from 3rd). I guess it is as much to do with protecting driveshafts & gearboxes as it is to restrain torque steer - why they can't trust drivers to use their right foot & brain as God intended I don't know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachel Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The fact that Jim Clark died on the track doesn't mean he wasn't a good enough driver. I've seen him race many times and imo he was good. A brilliant lunatic? - This is a different thread topic. [/ QUOTE ] As an aside Jim Clark died in Hockenheim, Germany during a pretty uninportant F2 race when he lost control on a damp track and hit a tree at 140mph. Bring that forward 39 years and not only would he have lived but no doubt gone back and got the spare car. Such is the advancement in safety. [/ QUOTE ] Not necessarily true - take the recent demise of Peter Brock in a car he helped design... Overcooked a corner in the Targa WA, hit a tree and died, his co-driver was relatively unhurt. Garcon's comments on road ability vs. track ability are spot on. Other than that small point - great thread, and thanks again for JimP's comments from the other side of the fence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Reading this thread, I'm wondering why the 159 Officer was cleared. Perhaps I should read the press reports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisg Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 Personally I 'd rather be overtaken at 130 mph, perhaps in slightly suspect circumstances, by a qualified traffic driver than overtaken by some loony Chav at 80. One of them has a bit more experience ! The fisrt track day I did , in my old 80 Sport, was a real surprise--- so much harder to drive fast than it looks on the TV, and tiring as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazza_g Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 [ QUOTE ] Reading this thread, I'm wondering why the 159 Officer was cleared. Perhaps I should read the press reports. [/ QUOTE ] perhaps the officer has screwed up with this incident (remember there was no damage to anyone or anything) but apart from that is very good at his job and they didn't want to feck his career Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
encee Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 [ QUOTE ] Hmm - surprised about that. I could understand the Cossies as turbo cars can vary a bit depending on conditions and whether you have a good one but N/As are usually on the money at best and more often a bit down. As an example, a healthy but std Focus ST could put out anywhere up to 240bhp+ (supposedly 222bhp) but suffers badly on hot days as the intercooler is allegedly . I haven't driven a Vectra (VXR anyway) but apparently it copes somewhere between pretty decent (Evo) and dreadfully (VX loving J.Clarkson esq). I would imagine that like most of the more powerful front drivers, torque is limited in 1st, 2cnd and sometimes 3rd - Focus ST has this and it is noticeable when you need a smart getaway or use 4th in any anger (not THAT far removed from 3rd). I guess it is as much to do with protecting driveshafts & gearboxes as it is to restrain torque steer - why they can't trust drivers to use their right foot & brain as God intended I don't know [/ QUOTE ] D1MAC: The Vectra VXR`s are actually very good as a traffic car. Maybe JC`s abilities far outweigh mine, but I`ve found them to be excellent for road-use. Some of ours now have upwards of 20k on them, and are nice and loose. They haven`t been found wanting yet, to my knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D1MAC Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 Encee, I'm sure you're right about the VXR. While it's never going to make anyone smile/laugh when giving it the beans, I reckon it's fairly capable as long as you don't drive like you stole it and expose the FWD limitations. I've seen a few of the traffic VXRs lurking but haven't as yet seen them being used in anger. Impossible to spot as anything out of the ordinary, unless you are following and look for the VXR badge - could be a 1.8LS for all most people know I wouldn't put much, if any, stock in Mr Clarkson's driving abilities and IMHO he knows almost F all about cars and their use in the real world. More of a commentator/wannabe comedian these days rather than anything approaching a motoring journalist. Plus I would suspect that almost anyone can smoke around a track with a bit of practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v6tas Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 [ QUOTE ] ...I wouldn't put much, if any, stock in Mr Clarkson's driving abilities and IMHO he knows almost F all about cars and their use in the real world. More of a commentator/wannabe comedian these days rather than anything approaching a motoring journalist. Plus I would suspect that almost anyone can smoke around a track with a bit of practice. [/ QUOTE ] Well old JC certainly knows how to fling powerful cars around a track and yes his commantry style makes me laugh and wouldnt miss TG for the world ....BUT if anyone bought a car just on the say so of JC and his sideways test drive around an airfield then they really do need to take a long hard look at themselves !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D1MAC Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 [ QUOTE ] Well old JC certainly knows how to fling powerful cars around a track and yes his commantry style makes me laugh and wouldnt miss TG for the world ....BUT if anyone bought a car just on the say so of JC and his sideways test drive around an airfield then they really do need to take a long hard look at themselves !! [/ QUOTE ] Agreed. It isn't that I don't find him amusing at times, just that most of the time he doesn't look at things with anything other than a 100% pre-conceived viewpoint and seems more concerned with making a specific point (whether that point is right or wrong) than any semblence of a realistic review. The VXR review with the obsession with torque steer was a prime example - yes it will do that if you mash the throttle round a tightish corner but in the real world people don't do that and/or have the sense to feed the power in a bit more gently. Thing is, so will any other powerful FWD car, including the almighty (to JC and many on here) Golf GTI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 [ QUOTE ] BUT if anyone bought a car just on the say so of JC and his sideways test drive around an airfield then they really do need to take a long hard look at themselves !! [/ QUOTE ] ....I did exactly that! And with absolutely no regrets. As a direct result of seeing JC's review on TG, I immediately arranged a test drive and then just as immediately ordered the car. After 29k miles I can say that JC spoke nothing but truths about the this car. I love his sense of humour and banter with the others anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cris Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 [ QUOTE ] perhaps the officer has screwed up with this incident (remember there was no damage to anyone or anything) but apart from that is very good at his job and they didn't want to feck his career [/ QUOTE ] Perhaps that means that the Scottish biker doing 170 should be let off too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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