cah Posted July 29, 2007 Report Share Posted July 29, 2007 Right - now this is probably a relatively daft question that I could answer quickly by driving in a golf gti (stock or chipped), but I was wondering - currently in London I never use 1st gear. I'm always in second. 2nd does 30mph and I move off with it perfectly. This is with an A160 (mum's car - I've been allowed to crash it before we get a new one for me). Would I be able to drive a GTI like this from day to day? Reason I ask is because whilst I like the thought of getting a DSG box in a year's time because of London traffic and never having to change gear - I'm finding that I'm not changing gear anyway. This would make me largely indifferent between DSG and manual other than the clutch. Thoughts? DSG worth it? Can I use 2nd all the time? Any potential problems from just using 2nd? Will my left leg eventually feel the pain of the clutch? Also - on an related note - my dad's automatic mercedes has a 'comfort' and sport mode - similar to D and S for the golf. S starts the car in first and is aggressive. Comfort moves off in 2nd and is for snow and not hitting 60 in 5seconds. Can you use the tiptronic in the DSG to move off in 2nd or will it automatically force you to first if the brake is on? As I said - i find using 2nd all the time on his car makes london driving nice and smooth and even on my mum's car very nice and smooth. This is something I want to be able to replicate when I get a gti.) And yes - I only recently passed my test. And no - I'm not a nutter, I'm 21 and quite relaxed behind the wheel but still inexperienced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petsy Posted July 29, 2007 Report Share Posted July 29, 2007 hmm, would have thought that constantly moving off from a standstill in second gear will prematurely wear your clutch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs Posted July 29, 2007 Report Share Posted July 29, 2007 DSG is a dual geared gearbox - and not an old style "automatic" - and as such it does not have tiptronic - the gears are directly selected and there is no "torque converter". It does have a drive and sport mode, but these mimic an automatic and are run on software and mechanicals, rather than mechanicals alone. The DSG does not allow you to start in second - you will always start in first, and move quickly to second in D. A manual box will allow you to start in second - but as Petsy says, this will tend to give increased wear on the clutch - you will replace your clutch more often - but still likely to be many thousands to tens of thousands of miles apart. If you want a smooth drive, then DSG in D will be good. Whether any individual can produce an equally smooth drive with a manual depends on their skill level, as well as outside factors (eg road surface, wet/dry, incline, rate of accelleration, how much throttle is open, speed, cornering, fuel, etc). Many aspects of control, particularly while slowing, will be better under manual. However stability will always be better with DSG - particularly on icy corners - as a gear is always engaged - so there is less risk of unintended weight shift when depressing the clutch to change in a manual. Thus the DSG is inherently safer, however may be less involving to an expert driver, and provides less control, but more automation and a higher degree of integrity to the car. (eg you can't crash the clutch into reverse gear when going forward and you can't foul up a change in a DSG like you could in a manual). As an inexperienced driver in London, why get a GTI if you are not after performance - the diesels are great. As an inexperienced driver DSG may well be the way to go! Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted July 29, 2007 Report Share Posted July 29, 2007 Ditto to what nhs_ has posted. But with the addition that you can always override D with the paddleshifters at any time. Even in Manual mode, first gear will be selected by the DSG box of tricks when you come to a standstill - It stays like that for about 30 secs before reverting back to D, unless you override it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cah Posted July 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2007 Thanks for the info - it's a shame to hear that starting off in second gear is bad for the car - it's just so silky smooth. Just to check - surely I won't cause extra wear unless I'm not gentle enough? If I'm careful it should be ok? As for gear changes I'm actually ok. And clutch work I'm pretty good at too. I could get the BSM diesel moving off in 3rd, and this petrol too in 3rd (not tried 4th) reliably. My inexperience is more to do with practice in situations and alternative car systems beyond the manual ones I've used (corsas, vectras, seat, merc). As for car choices - haven't really chosen one - just want to see how the options work. And didn't particularly enjoy learning in diesels, but I'll definitely consider it. No harm in taking it for a test. I'll have this A160 for a year or two, run it into the ground (10k miles S reg as my mum never drives) then pick. But I've always liked the golf gti package. I dunno. Or the S3. p.s. nobody really needs performance, but it's fun to have it anyway - especially if I end up doing the motorway run between london and oxford more regularly now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cah Posted July 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2007 never mind- read up about it - no more moving off from 2nd for me in traffic or in the city unless i really have to. 1st it is, once stopped unless i can keep it crawling at 5mph in 2nd. But then again, it is not as if I spend ages on the clutch in second at all, but still longer than 1st. Now all i need is more practice in making 1 to 2 perfect. Still, with all the traffic I'll be riding the clutch anyway whatever and no matter how fast I bring the clutch up so meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs Posted July 30, 2007 Report Share Posted July 30, 2007 As Petsy says, it's a clutch WEAR issue.... It is the higher level of friction required to get the car moving relating to the ratio of drive to first gear versus drive to second gear that causes added wear. How long the clutch will last remains unknown (but will be less than if you used first rather than second). If you get sell the car before the clutch goes, then this will be someone elses problem.... "Riding the clutch" normally means having the clutch partially depressed when progressing - however this again will also give premature clutch wear and can reduce car control, especially with regard to distribution of weight between front and rear, which can affect stability when cornering or braking. [ QUOTE ] And clutch work I'm pretty good at too [/ QUOTE ] The issue for "expertise" in clutch control is beyond the use of the clutch to engage a gear without stalling. Beyond this it is actually about shifting the dynamic weight of the car to maintain stability when accellerating/cornering/braking and thereby reducing the risk of loss of control between the tyres and the traction surface - i.e. skidding. Modern cars reduce much of this problem with traction control and ESP electronic stability programs, however the issue remains for manuals when on slippery surfaces when depressing the clutch, which results in very significant weight redistribution. When you've got a fuller understanding of the need for clutch control under these circumstances, then you'll be on your way to being an expert In the meantime, sounds like you'd benefit from DSG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted July 30, 2007 Report Share Posted July 30, 2007 ....And also benefit from a day out with Big John at Drivetrain ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cah Posted July 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2007 Thanks guys - some very good tips there. Yes, I was going to do some of the advanced driving stuff in the future, so drivetrain sounds like a good start. But for now of course pointless because I don't think I'll be skidding when I average 14mph Actually I will get some unofficial advanced driver training because I will be going to Greece - and as you know the drivers and roads are abysmal there! Hmm, you are right, I'll probably get DSG. My dad says from his experience that manuals in cities with relatively powerful engines drove him crazy lol. It will probably last longer too. I mean it is fun moving and controlling the car with only the clutch in maneouvring, and it is fun holding the car on a hill but there is little point. DSG does satisfy the geek in me. Intersting side note - the synchromesh failed on this car after 8,000 miles (it now has 10k and it is s reg :S ) - fortunately not my fault which is why I want to look after it. p.s. reading up about the clutch stuff - very interesting on the weight stuff. Only irony is that my BSM instructor taught me the ball and edge technique (for moving off on hills and downshifting) and I didn't even realise the point of it until now!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy Posted July 30, 2007 Report Share Posted July 30, 2007 I found the manual far easier to drive in winter conditions than the DSG, Mind im talking proper winter conditions here rather than the mm's sprinkle of snow that the south of England calls a mager snow fall that always seems to brings the south to a halt . The DSG was too abrupt on the throttle responce and you could not control the pull away as well as you could in the manual. Sorry but in bad condtions i would take the Manual every time over the DSG. Maybe this is one of the reason VW has added a button to the GTsports? Town driving im not too sure again the DSG is still abit abrupt and can sometimes feel like an old style auto and have a pause. We were told this was a software problem by others on here and an update was available a while back but the cars now had all updates and its made little difference imho. DSG is great but i still think it has its downfalls. Over 2 years of driving both versions i like both but sometimes you just wish you were in the other one somedays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted July 30, 2007 Report Share Posted July 30, 2007 My Revo remap seems to have made my DSG seem smoother. I don't know if it's just a placebo effect but it's certainly very smooth indeed with the increased torque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy Posted July 30, 2007 Report Share Posted July 30, 2007 You may find by the time you come to buy if your buying new that the decision is made even harder because the new model will be on the horizon and there maybe a 200bhp twin turbo direct injection TDI as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekin_88 Posted July 30, 2007 Report Share Posted July 30, 2007 [ QUOTE ] You may find by the time you come to buy if your buying new that the decision is made even harder because the new model will be on the horizon and there maybe a 200bhp twin turbo direct injection TDI as well. [/ QUOTE ] OMG, this will start the waiting game, if I wait for the next model and what comes next, erm will diesel better than petrol etc etc, its a never ending story, just go out and buy one and have fun sorry just useless banter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cah Posted July 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2007 yeah ekin - you are right. But no cash and no need for car = waiting game anyway. Plus new model means MKV second hand should be nice and cheap - especially since it's the more expensively made (better?). Nice to know redrobin! Aye - the grass is always greener on the other side. What we need is a DSG-manual hybrid with a jet and wings and a shield to stop dings....and a petro-diesel whilst we are at it too. seriously, thanks for all the real-world opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekin_88 Posted July 31, 2007 Report Share Posted July 31, 2007 Point 1 Plus new model means MKV second hand should be nice and cheap - especially since it's the more expensively made (better?). Point 2 Aye - the grass is always greener on the other side. What we need is a DSG-manual hybrid with a jet and wings and a shield to stop dings....and a petro-diesel whilst we are at it too. Point 1, So when they release the first MKVI golf, the price of the MKV GTI will plumet? or is that wishful thinking! Point 2. Dont tempt RedRobin aka RR he will start the modding process, and once you start its a slippery slope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cah Posted July 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2007 Point 1: wishful thinking - but best time to buy from dealer is when they want to get rid of stock - but everyone else will have the same idea of course point 2: oh well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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