Re-Map opinions

[JonC]

I think you've read me completely wrong. Re-read what Ive put, I have said I think you will more than likely see 250-260BHP, and the reason that I said this was I had a GOLF GTI, the same as yours, two years ago, with similar mods and only saw about 250BHP on the rollers. I am speaking from experience from my car, you seem to be plucking the figures from thin air.

I am not being patronising just realistic, its a shame you don't see it this way.

Good luck, with your car, they are a fantastic all rounder, and like you've already done, they work so much better with a map exhaust etc.

Fair enough, Oli. You've had the benefit of stage 2 GTi ownership and I appreciate that. When the work's done and should the dyno prove me wrong, I'll hold my hands up and say I got it wrong. In any case, an increase in power is the reason for the further mods and as I said, I'll keep you posted.

[Oli]

I was never trying to prove you wrong, as you put it, just trying to help you along, with the correct figures.

As I've said when the map etc is carried out on a GTI, it releases the engines full potential, and my reaction was why didn't it come out of the factory like this??

As Rozzerfodder has also said, any increases should be determined as before and after, as RR's do tend to rear a little different to each other.

Enjoy

[JonC]

edit...any increases should be determined as before and after, as RR's do tend to rear a little different to each other

I know and that is a concern as I want the true before and after figures so I feel I've really got my money's worth.

[Oli]

As long as you have it measured on the same rolling road on the same day, and the people that do it don't tamper with the figures to make it look better(it has been known) you will get a very accurate indication of the BHP and torque increase

Edited October 13, 2008 by Oli

[Mook]

Neither. Yet. The bigger turbo unit and intercooler would take the car into awesome territory alongside all the other hardware and stage 2 software. Of course, its budget allowing. I'm budgeting £1500-£2000 to eek the extra power. The full turbo Milltek and uprated fuel pump with specific stage 2 software will get me the extra power I crave but a bigger turbo and FMIC will blow the budget I fear. Any thoughts?

If you're just running the Cat-back Milltek with a revo remap, you're probably getting around 250 bhp at the minute. Add the Milltek cat and you'll be around 260 with the stage 2 remap.

Uprating the fuel pump won't do anything if you don't uprate the fuel pressure regulator (FPR) - it'll still run through the fuel rail at the same pressure. Upping the fuel pressure, either with an adjustable or fixed FPR will give you zero increase in power, unless you're adding a bigger turbo and an intercooler, because the car won't be able to breathe to take advantage of it.

When you do fit a bigger turbo, you'll have to up the FPR.

It really depends on what turbo you fit as to how much power and torque you want. To get a stock GTI over 300 bhp, you'll probably need a hybrid, but I genuinely wouldn't take a stock GTI up to that kind of power, without risking the longevity of the engine.

The GTI Ed30 engine is a detuned S3 engine, so will comfortably handle 330 bhp and 350 torques reliably (and that's the key word - reliability).

Budgeting £1500 for a turbo upgrade won't be enough. If you want to do it properly, including an uprated intercooler and to include labour, you should budget for £3K upwards.

Which means you should probably consider not doing the work on your car and buying an Ed30, getting a remap and a full Milltek and getting a comfortable 330bhp/350 torques. It's very driveable with that kind of power, but you'll need to think about uprated brakes and suspension to properly take advantage of it.

If I were you, I'd get the car handling like a dream so it's more driveable, then think about tuning it, but definitely not over 290-300 bhp or 320 torques.

Your call, but I know where I would spend my money

Edited October 14, 2008 by Mook

[JonC]

Thanks for the info, Mook, it is appreciated.

If you're just running the Cat-back Milltek with a revo remap, you're probably getting around 250 bhp at the minute.

Agreed.

Add the Milltek cat and you'll be around 260 with the stage 2 remap.

You're the second person to mention that kind of power. Perhaps 280 is too ambitious. Oli, I owe you an apology

Uprating the fuel pump won't do anything if you don't uprate the fuel pressure regulator (FPR) - it'll still run through the fuel rail at the same pressure. Upping the fuel pressure, either with an adjustable or fixed FPR will give you zero increase in power, unless you're adding a bigger turbo and an intercooler, because the car won't be able to breathe to take advantage of it.

So an uprated fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator will help power increase, albeit marginally?

Budgeting £1500 for a turbo upgrade won't be enough. If you want to do it properly, including an uprated intercooler and to include labour, you should budget for £3K upwards.

That's what I thought - its too much money.

Which means you should probably consider not doing the work on your car and buying an Ed30, getting a remap and a full Milltek and getting a comfortable 330bhp/350 torques. It's very driveable with that kind of power, but you'll need to think about uprated brakes and suspension to properly take advantage of it.

I hear what you're saying, but again in this economic climate to part-ex my GTi (which is fully specced) for an identical (bar the leather) Ed30, and then spend the extra for the tuning isn't an option for me - regretably. Also, sounds stupid, but I'm not sure if I could part with my leather.

If I were you, I'd get the car handling like a dream so it's more driveable, then think about tuning it, but definitely not over 290-300 bhp or 320 torques.

What would you suggest? ARB's and Koni FSD set up?

Thanks again

[Oli]

Thanks for the apology.

What you've also got to remember between the GTI and Ed 30, is that a mapped GTI seems to have no or very little lag, whereas a mapped Ed30 (approx 330BHP with all the mods you mention - My S3 was about this)will seem laggy in comparisson - It was very noticable on my S3 - You do learn to drive round it, but just a point to note

Edited October 14, 2008 by Oli

[burble]

So an uprated fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator will help power increase, albeit marginally?

On their own an uprated fuel pump and pressure regulator won't give you any extra power, but if you have other mods and a suitable remap that takes into account the changes in the fuel system then you have the potential to benefit from it.

[Mook]

Like Burble says, Jon

If you're going to modify your car further, then only take it up to 280 or so - otherwise your engine won't last long, so in the current climate, if that's one of your concerns, keep it quick but long term reliable

If I were to choose, I'd go for a full KW variant 3 set-up, 25mm front ARB and 22mm rear ARB. You won't need much more. You could look at the Bilstein PSS-9, which would give you similar adjustability, but it really depends how much you want to have to tweak your car to get it spot on.

Oli - a lot of it does depend on who's remap you're using. I've driven Ed's (APS) Ed30 (330/350) and didn't find it laggy at all.

But feck, if you want laggy, try my Mk2 20v turbo - wait 'til you get to 4K and all hell lets loose though

[Oli]

I had an Oettinger map on mine. Standard the turbo would come in around 3000rpm, with the map, its more like 25-2750 rpm, which isnt massive but against a lagless MKV GTI, it is noticable

[JonC]

In an ideal world and if money wasn't an issue, then I'd have an Ed30 modded to 330 bhp & 350 torques with leather interior and Monza II's.

However, I'm craving more power but my concerns are reliabilty. Your suggestion of taking it up to 280 bhp makes sense.

If I were to choose, I'd go for a full KW variant 3 set-up, 25mm front ARB and 22mm rear ARB. You won't need much more. You could look at the Bilstein PSS-9, which would give you similar adjustability, but it really depends how much you want to have to tweak your car to get it spot on.

Why 25mm front 22mm rear? What's the thought process behind that set up?

[Mook]

Because it does the least to upset the standard balance of the car and gives you the least amount of roll without compromising the overall handling.

I've tried all sorts of combos of ARBs and these work the best to both remove understeer as much as possible and not make the tail end too happy to go its own way whenever it fancies!

[JonC]

Because it does the least to upset the standard balance of the car and gives you the least amount of roll without compromising the overall handling.

I've tried all sorts of combos of ARBs and these work the best to both remove understeer as much as possible and not make the tail end too happy to go its own way whenever it fancies!

Very useful info, Mook. Many thanks.

[Mook]

No worries

[richardmearman]

Richard,

I am currently waiting for APS to remap my Scirocco, they are currently unable to write to the ECU on these latest generation VAg group cars as they are clamped down differently. They do however expect to have the ability anyday now as some super clever guy has written software to do it and will be making it available to the market. I would suspect that your Audi fits into this category hence why the tuners you have approached cannot help at this stage.

JonCowling, I was there when Oli had his car RR'd along with a couple of other GTi's, some wuth Full Millteks, custom remaps etc so the full stage 2. I also had a full stage 2 GTi and I have not seen evidence of GTI's with the K03 turbos making those figures. What you do get though is a very nice drive with a decent bit more power that is more than obvious. Do also bear in mind that some RR's are a tad generous with their outputs, so I guess the best measure there is the difference before and after remapping to see the "overall gain"

Cheers,

i'v decided to opt away from the re-map a friend of mine works at audi and he has advised me to just buy a tuning box instead, alot easier to deal with the warranty issues and similar power increases, there is a company on the web which claim increase up to 219bhp (very suspicious) but very good if true only downside was the price tag £893.00 including discount!!!!! seems alot for a system which i have paid around £250.00 for on other cars

[Mook]

If I were you, I would get confirmation in writing from your local Audi service manager that a tuning box won't invalidate your warranty. There's a big difference between what someone who's not involved in warranty claims and someone who is will do if it comes to making a claim.

[richardmearman]

If I were you, I would get confirmation in writing from your local Audi service manager that a tuning box won't invalidate your warranty. There's a big difference between what someone who's not involved in warranty claims and someone who is will do if it comes to making a claim.

Cheers Mook,

I don't think i'l b able to get anything in writing from audi so i think the bypass system may be the best way! Then if anything was to go wrong then i can just remove it and take it into the garage, there should be no way of them being able to know that it has been running with a chip, my friend has a 520d chipped and whenever it goes in for service he simply removes the chip, it's just had it's second service and they haven't noticed it.

[Jamiekip]

Richard,

Have you investigated GIAC maps? Theya re massive in the states and are growing in the UK.

They are big in VAG cars and I'd be surprised if they didn't have one.

They are renowned for making very smooth and driveable software that bulds progressively. I have one on my S3 with no other significant mod's and it builds very nicely from about 2500rpm right through to the readline. On a rolling road recently it delivered 314bhp and the power and torque curves are very smooth.

Teh great thing about GIAC is you can get a flashloader.

It plus in your diagnostics port and let's you swap between maps. There is a zero flashcount system so it will not add flashes tou your ECU.

Also, the standard map they provide is a standard OEM Audi map, so if a delaer was to check your ECU, so long as you have flashed the standard map on before going to the dealer tehy will never tell unless they really hunt for it.

It's a really good system and I'm really impressed with it.

Regal Autosport are the UK distributors and should be able to give you more details.

HTH

J

[sternocleidomastoid]

Like Burble says, Jon

If you're going to modify your car further, then only take it up to 280 or so - otherwise your engine won't last long, so in the current climate, if that's one of your concerns, keep it quick but long term reliable

If I were to choose, I'd go for a full KW variant 3 set-up, 25mm front ARB and 22mm rear ARB. You won't need much more. You could look at the Bilstein PSS-9, which would give you similar adjustability, but it really depends how much you want to have to tweak your car to get it spot on.

Oli - a lot of it does depend on who's remap you're using. I've driven Ed's (APS) Ed30 (330/350) and didn't find it laggy at all.

But feck, if you want laggy, try my Mk2 20v turbo - wait 'til you get to 4K and all hell lets loose though

That MK2 sounds like fun. Did you add the turbo yourself or buy it already modified?

[Mook]

Part complete project. I've made a lot of mods to it since getting it. It still needs more work, but it's fine for the winter. Next spring will see a few more beans spent on it to get it up to around 280-290bhp.

Then all hell will break loose :D

[Teutonic_Tamer]

The GTI Ed30 engine is a detuned S3 engine, so will comfortably handle 330 bhp and 350 torques reliably (and that's the key word - reliability).

I'm sorry, but that just is NOT correct. The Edition 30 engine (and the Leon Cupra) is exactly the same as the standard 200PS GTI engine, but with the larger K04 turbo, and a couple of other ancillary hardware differences.

The S3 engine is unique, and is NOT shared with anything else - the S3 has a completely unique cylinder block (aka crankcase), which is made from a much stronger cast iron. The S3 engine also has a much stronger strengthened bedplate for the crankshaft and balancer shafts. It is for this reason why the S3 engine can be reliably cranked upto around 450PS. Try that on an Ed30 or Cupra engine, and it will end in tears.

But you are correct that an Ed30 can be tuned to around 330PS - as can the standard GTI engine with the larger K04 turbo.

[sternocleidomastoid]

Part complete project. I've made a lot of mods to it since getting it. It still needs more work, but it's fine for the winter. Next spring will see a few more beans spent on it to get it up to around 280-290bhp.

Then all hell will break loose :D

Christ on a bike, that'll give you about 260bhp/ton! Next spring sounds like a lot of fun.

[Oli]

I'm sorry, but that just is NOT correct. The Edition 30 engine (and the Leon Cupra) is exactly the same as the standard 200PS GTI engine, but with the larger K04 turbo, and a couple of other ancillary hardware differences.

The S3 engine is unique, and is NOT shared with anything else - the S3 has a completely unique cylinder block (aka crankcase), which is made from a much stronger cast iron. The S3 engine also has a much stronger strengthened bedplate for the crankshaft and balancer shafts. It is for this reason why the S3 engine can be reliably cranked upto around 450PS. Try that on an Ed30 or Cupra engine, and it will end in tears.

But you are correct that an Ed30 can be tuned to around 330PS - as can the standard GTI engine with the larger K04 turbo.

I'm sure you're wrong there. I'm led to beleive that they are the same engine, in different states of tune, and the Leon/ED30 has a smaller intercooler.

I'm just trying to find something to back this up

[Mook]

I'm sorry, but that just is NOT correct. The Edition 30 engine (and the Leon Cupra) is exactly the same as the standard 200PS GTI engine, but with the larger K04 turbo, and a couple of other ancillary hardware differences.

The S3 engine is unique, and is NOT shared with anything else - the S3 has a completely unique cylinder block (aka crankcase), which is made from a much stronger cast iron. The S3 engine also has a much stronger strengthened bedplate for the crankshaft and balancer shafts. It is for this reason why the S3 engine can be reliably cranked upto around 450PS. Try that on an Ed30 or Cupra engine, and it will end in tears.

But you are correct that an Ed30 can be tuned to around 330PS - as can the standard GTI engine with the larger K04 turbo.

Sorry mate - we'll have to disagree on this. Have a word with the guys at APS. The Ed30 engine is based on the S3 unit, which, as you rightly point out, has a stronger bottom end.

Without spending serious money on additional mods on a stock Mk5 GTI, you can't get beyond about 290bhp with a K04. There's also the problem with long term reliability because the bottom end won't handle it.

It's exactly the same in the basic 1.8T - push them beyond 280bhp without strengthening the bottom end, and the longevity of the engine is in serious question.

Edited October 17, 2008 by Mook

[Mook]

Christ on a bike, that'll give you about 260bhp/ton! Next spring sounds like a lot of fun.

That's the idea

It's a bit feckin stupid already, which is why I need to stick a limited slip diff in the Cupra R gearbox before it goes in.

The fact that it looks completely stock (apart from the wheels) makes for some proper entertainment from the boys in their big toys