Vx or Ford.

[cruiser647]

Following on from this thread:-

http://www.tyresmoke.net/forum/general-cars/117353-ford-kuga-2.html

This could be as emotive as BMW v Audi!

Me? Don't like Ford, never bought one, never will now. Had a Focus loaner once and apart from the handling, everything else was dire. I've never understood why the Focus scores so well with journos :confused:.

Obviously, my mates have had Fords (long ago) and the engines were always rougher than the Matthews mothers' minge in Holloway. The interiors were terrible and that is what must have put me off them.

Never been swayed by the Cosworth models neither. Too crass & hardcore for me

Now on the other hand, I have had about 8 Vx's (Cavaliers, Omegas and Senators - complete with digital dash :D). All but 1 was perfect and none of them ever broke down. Engines were smooth and interiors fine.

Another mate of mine used to get a new Vx every 12K miles (at the time it meant a new one every 6 months!). He used to put them through the mill, load them up with computer stuff for fairs twice a week, drive miles, visiting the red rev zone often and he was never gentle with them. I drove them too and they were lovely. Barring the original Vectra, all was good, but the V6 he always got made up a bit for that.

The 2.6 V6 Omega Estates were great cruisers, the next Vectras were ace in V6 form, but in 2.0 turbo form (I was spoilt by the V6 grunt) did not seem as good. Signum V6's once again cavernous and a great drive.

He never had a Sintra , but had some Mk III & IV Astras as they were changing models.

The things never let him/us down. Nothing broke off the insides/outsides.

Anyway, just the ramblings of Vx fan.

[theduisbergkid]

The problem with Vauxhall is - they're just so ordinary ! They offer respectable enough transport, but that's it, transport. The VX220 was ace, but a lotus, the Monaro was ace, but a Holden. Vauxhall have no 'halo' car, have you seen an Astra VXR Nurburgring in white ? It's like the 90's looks and handling never went away for Vauxhall. However, my opinion of Vauxhall might be tinged by the Corsa diesel rental I had yesterday (thanks Hertz)...

[blackjack]

I'm of the generation that wanted their dad to have a Capri and worshiped the Sierra Cossie, so my vote is for the blue oval. I test drove an old shape Focus before I brought the GT4. I liked the car and came close to buying it before I let heart rule head and got my current ride. I've also borrowed the C-Max and S-Max in recent years and thought both were nice cars. My favourite Ford of the moment though has to be the Mustang.

[steelwind101]

Brands like Ford will always get good write ups for its mainstream models. Magazines and jornos cant write to many bad things about them. It would piss of the readship, a majority of people are Ford or Vauxhall friendly. Also, it would anger the companys, less back handers, sneak peeks etc.

Of course on forums like this we can be very honest! As posted and mentioned i have an 07 Focus in the states now. Reason i got it had a 25K on the clock and cost me about £3900, 2.0 SE ZX4.

How is it? Way more plasticy then what some of you posted up as bad points on the Lancer. Long journeys tend to make the car a bit noise, esp. the brakes but that doesnt seem to be fault so speak. Paintwork is pretty flat, its cheap not all that enthusiastic to drive, engine doesnt wow but it was cheap! What more can i say? Id love a Civic but there mucho more money.

As a kid i rode around in the back of Carltons and Senators at the start of the 1990s. I liked the Omega estate, big up market feel for at the end of the 1990s. Chain cam 4 pots of the last shaped Mondeo was a good thing.

Two things kills both those brands for me:

- Depreciation

- They dont last well, or atleast not as well Japense motors for the city driving i do.

[D1MAC]

Brands like Ford will always get good write ups for its mainstream models. Magazines and jornos cant write to many bad things about them. It would piss of the readship, a majority of people are Ford or Vauxhall friendly. Also, it would anger the companys, less back handers, sneak peeks etc.

I woud say same goes for all of the brands with a decent presence in the market or a car or range that the journos want to get their mitts on. That means you can add BMW, Merc, VAG, Porsche, Ferrari and possibly others to that list as well (Toyota and Honda probably at the very least).

Just to pluck an example out of the air (and not trying to target one magazine or company, just one that popped into my head) - Do you really think that Car is going to be all that negative about VAG products given their size in the market & the fact that the press officer is an ex Car journo.

I don't!

Two things kills both those brands for me:

- Depreciation

- They dont last well, or atleast not as well Japense motors for the city driving i do.

The depreciation argument is often a load of cock & balls. If you go and buy a new Ford/VX, pay list and don't haggle on a trade in then yes you may well get a bit more of a hammering.

However, in the real world, you'd have to be pretty thick or actually have been born yesterday to do that.

I paid £17k for my basically new Focus 2 1/2 years ago and it is now worth about £8.5k according to Glass' on the Network Q site (all I have available to compare) - so approx £8.5k loss. The alternatives I was looking at would have been (with equivalent values now in brackets):

BM 130i M-Sport @ £20k+ (£11.7k) - £8.3k loss approx

Astra VXR @ £17K (£9.5k) - £7.5k loss :confused: - I'd have thought it would have been much worse actually.

Golf GTI @ £19k+ (£10.3k) - £9.7k loss approx . Yes, when I was looking I couldn't find anything with the same spec as the Focus for anything less. With leather & 18s it was £20k plus. Used value looks a little light IMO but not much.

Golf R32 @ say £22k [can't quite remember but I'm sure they were at least this] (£11.4k) - Big loss but that might be a bit light IMO, I'd say same ball park as the others.

Audi A3 3.2 S-Line @ £20k (£9.8k) - £10k loss

All of the above are based on 56 plates and same mileage as the Focus, bar the Audi as they were 55/06 plates IIRC.

In reality there is probably a bit of flex in those used values and f**k knows where things are at this precise moment in time (one BM 130 I've seen just recently as I've been looking again has just gone up in price by £2k this week and it wasn't great value before!!!!), but as you can see, with a bit of nouse you don't actually end up gaining/losing that much unless you strike lucky on the timing front. While all good cars in their own way, they just aren't special enough to cheat the depreciation reaper.

Thing is, everyone gets tied up in residual value percentages based on list price and simply doesn't look at real English pounds and real world deals. Now how much value you place on the relative merits of each is an enirely different discussion and one that isn't worth opening the can of worms over. TBH, had the deal been 'right' in each instance, I'd have been happy enough with any of them.

As for not lasting well compared to the Japs, see a couple of other posts I've made in the last couple of days about my Civic Type R. It had much more go wrong with it than the Focus and in a more relaxed timescale wrt mileage hammer. As for say engine longevity, the 5cyl in the Focus is in such a prehistoric state of tune I would bet on it doing 200k plus without hassle. If they don't go pop early on and you treat them with respect I'd say a long life is pretty likely.

Shame about the Civic actually as I thought it was good fun, plus it had a truly wonderful gearbox.

Edited April 3, 2009 by D1MAC

[bullett]

My experience of Vx has without fail been dire. I would think twice if I was given one.

I much prefer fords.

[D1MAC]

I've had 2 Vauxhalls and one Ford (current) and the old man has had at least 4 Vx's and always hated Fords. He doesn't feel that way now and rather likes the ST - Must be the old boy racer in him:grin:

Of those, the Ford has been fine, as have at least a couple of the Vaux's (with one being a bit crappy and one being a complete pile of :dung:). My old Astra did 200k and was still in decent condition mechanically, including the original clutch, when it left this earth.

Overall, I'd generally have either if I felt it was the right thing for me, although at the moment I'd veer abit towards the blue oval as I don't have overly fond memories of the various Astra hire cars I've had (common theme here:)), including a couple where I was the second driver ever (the first being the chap who delivered them). Some of the petrol engines sounded worse than diesels and I never liked the seats or door cards.

I think the problem I have is not with one or t'other, but the common assumption that the 'premium' brands are always superior in every way, resulting in the summary dismissal of others, even if they have made great strides to improve. Sometimes they are but it just isn't always the case - see the depreciation stuff above, plus reliability isn't always any better (even if basic build quality is).

You pays your money, makes your choice and lives with the consequences. Sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong, regardless of the little placcy badge on the front & back.

[BillBlank]

I grew up in the Manta vs. Capri era. The characteristics of these cars summed up the two brands nicely for me and that prejudice has stuck with me because I'm old and blinkered. Fords are cheaply engineered and agricultural in nature where the Vauxhall had a little bit more money spent on it. Little things like suspension bushes and connectors were that tiny bit better. Leaf vs. Coil springs anyone?

It helps that I detest the ford Focus. Had one as a post write off rental for three weeks. Silly rear end created huge blind spots, engine was unrefined, interior was dark and oppressive and even after driving something as ghastly as a Renault Clio for the previous six months the handling was turgid in comparison. A real disappointment after the write ups had proclaimed it to be the drivers car in it's sector. My friends 100k mile diesel vectra was a real giggle to drive in comparison.

I must finally declare that until I was forced to acquire a 4.2 A8 I believed most cars to be vomit boxes compared to my GSXR. I still chuckle when I read posts eulogizing the rocketship nature of their car that barely manages a real world 0-60 of sub 7 seconds. Anything over 4 is for hairdressers, yes I'm looking at you Mr M3/RS4/mid range Porsche owner. At least you take your driving seriously enough to pay proper attention and get out of my way when I'm on the bike:roflmao:.

[steelwind101]

D1MAC, Yeah i understand you in some part but remeber my posts about the Jazz, i was trading those in every year for a brand new one woth 17K on the clock for about £1800 hit! Now some part might be the dealer and they were always more happy to sell you a new then used but thats just crazy IMO and i enjoyed it!

Here is what i mean about cars not lasting. I drive mostly in the city of London for 17K a year, its not a huge area and its very conjested. This puts alot of stress on cars, after a while other brands i have used (i owner a company and we have mainly Volvos, Mondeo Estate i also owned BMW over the last few yrs as now have Passat TDI and Auris SR).

Things that happened in BMW, Ford and Volvo and i have not used the neck snapper much in the city yet are:

You sit in traffic, foot on brake or hand brake on A/C units become clunky car lurches against brakes. Doesnt happen when there new, doesnt happen at all in the Honda, at the moment Auris seems perfect with about 10K on the clock.

Engines become loud esp. as the city miles pile on traffic lights, stop starts. Often a "tick" sound starts to become noticeable on the petrols. Why? They say tappets, no problems on Honda DSI or Dual VVTI. Mondeo, i appreciate the chain cam, but its noisy. Had it checked, they say its just the type of driving and the car wasnt designed with this type of driving mind....well what then?

Powersteering, after the car gets hot you can tell with the Volvos and this became an issue with the BMW towards the end of its life. You steer the wheel and the power steering wouldent be there full on. A few nano seconds later, its back but you know for that little bit was not working and you catch you out on reverse.

You see my problem? I find many of the brands are simply cut out as capable cars to do jobs i need. I spend time in the USA and while i find cars, of all brands better at clock high motorway miles. The ones with the extras that tend to last the longest are Japs.

Geoff

[steelwind101]

I think the point im trying to make is one of "degradation" of the experince of the car, which appears to be alot more common in non Jap cars. Obviosuly some things a side, everyone has the occasional bad egg.

I learnt to drive in a 90's Accord 98K on the clock all put on by my family from new over 3years and the only thing that popped or changed or was the exhaust just before it was traded.

This, atleast for me is something that i havent had in any other brands. Only one i can think back from discussions with my family was the C124 Coupe 300CE 1988 when MB used to build them big, tough and with a resound effort to make them stay "as new forever". Now that was a car to go to school in, then and i suspect now to!

Geoff

Edited April 4, 2009 by steelwind101

[Arch]

Seeing as we're following on from my Kuga thread, it would be rude of me not to add my two penneth.

Ford all the way.

I grew up with my Dad, Grandparents and Uncles all having various Fords over the years. Off the top of my head I can remember at least 7 of Dads including his 2.9i Scorpio with Turbo Technics twin turbos, that was fun. There was a nice 3.0 Capri in the mix too, lovely car.

Myself, I've had 6 to date, a pair of Mk2 1600 Sports, a couple of RS Turbos, a Puma (not the fastest car in the world but that chassis is superb) and a Focus ST170 (wifeys). I used to work for a company with a dealership as well so always ended up taking the directors home from various events and keeping the car for the night, XR4x4s, Sapphire Cosworths, RS2000s and the wonderful Citrine Yellow Mondeo!!! I enjoyed them all.

In comparison, I briefly owned a Corsa GSi. Bad enough as that is, i'm not going to tell you what I traded in for it, i would never live it down. It was, at best, crap. I've had friends with Astras and Cavaliers and the like, none of them ever really did anything for me then and there's nothing I can think of in the Vauxhall line up that does it for me now.

[cruiser647]

As a Vx fan, why would you have a Capri 2.8 when you can have a Monza?

A Granada when you can have a lovely Senator!

The Mk II & III Cavaliers were soo much better than the Ford equivalents.

The Vx engines of those above were much better than the Ford offerings. Even now, I think the same (IMHO).

[theduisbergkid]

Arch - Ford Puma - good call. Cheap, great chassis, fun and nippy. A cult classic in the making ?

[lesK]

Ford for me, had escort, fiesta, cortina, sierra and mondeo and galaxy, and only one I didn't like was the escort. Never owned a vauxhall but travelled in Corsas, astra, cavalier and vectra and can't think of one I'd buy.

[Arch]

Arch - Ford Puma - good call. Cheap, great chassis, fun and nippy. A cult classic in the making ?

Fo sho!! Other than my DC2, I can't think of much else I've driven that made me grin from ear to ear on a good stretch of road. Such a well set up and balanced car, I loved it.

[Tipex]

As a Vx fan, why would you have a Capri 2.8 when you can have a Monza?

Because you want to go round corners!

A Granada when you can have a lovely Senator.

Again, because you want to go round corners!

Vauxhalls just don't handle, they have never managed to get the hang of building chassis'. Even now after all these years all they can pump out is ridiculously overpowered (for the chassis) cars, that completely fail to overcome their inadequacies, who in their right mind would ever take an Astra VXR over a Focus ST? let alone the new RS, you'd have to be mad, and know nothing about cars!

Escorts RS Turbos ran rings around Astra GTE's, as did XR2's round Nova GTE's, Capri's around Manta's Sierra Cossies around Cavalier GSi's, It's always been the same and Vauxhall do nothing about it.

Now if you'd said "why would you want a Scorpio when you can can have a Lotus Carlton" I might be inclined to agree with you, but then hold on a mo, another half decent Vauxhall that's not made by Vauxhall!

[blackjack]

A Granada when you can have a lovely Senator!

The Granada* was a staple of the likes of the Sweeney and the Professionals. I'd take the MKI or MKII over whatever VX were offering then.

The Mk II & III Cavaliers were soo much better than the Ford equivalents.

The Sierra was a decent motor, whether it's better than the Cavalier is subjective. As for the MKIII, it was blown away by the far better MKI Mondeo?

Transit or CF?

* or Consul GT

[cruiser647]

Escorts RS Turbos ran rings around Astra GTE's, as did XR2's round Nova GTE's, Capri's around Manta's Sierra Cossies around Cavalier GSi's, It's always been the same and Vauxhall do nothing about it.

Now if you'd said "why would you want a Scorpio when you can can have a Lotus Carlton" I might be inclined to agree with you, but then hold on a mo, another half decent Vauxhall that's not made by Vauxhall!

Capri's, corners? Eh? . They only stopped going round the corner when a tree stopped it.

Vx engines were always better/smoother than the Ford equivalents.

[cruiser647]

The Granada*

A Granada when you can have a lovely Senator!

was a staple of the likes of the Sweeney and the Professionals. I'd take the MKI or MKII over whatever VX were offering then.

Excellent product placement by Ford. I prefered them too until I got into a 3.0 CD Senator!

The Sierra was a decent motor, whether it's better than the Cavalier is subjective. As for the MKIII, it was blown away by the far better MKI Mondeo?

Very subjective. I thought the Sierra was a crock. Hideous in every detail, from the rough engines to the nasty fabric seating and blocky fascia.

[Se5aScott]

Have owned fiestas, escorts, sierras and a focus, have never even looked at vx. I used to have a dutton kitcar and that had ford running gear, my scimitar has a ford motor too.

So +1 for ford

Back in the old days when my dad was doing his police training, when it came to learning about legal requirements for cars he was told to get himself down to the local ford dealer. If it wasn't fitted as std, it wasn't a legal requirement

Edited April 6, 2009 by Se5aScott
added a bit

[cruiser647]

Seems I'm a minority then. (Knew that anyway, but thanks to TSN for confirming)

[BillBlank]

It's often considered a bad sign if I agree with a point of view . I can't believe that Tipex said Capri and corner in the same sentence without including fire ball, ambulance, hideous power off oversteer, manure cart suspension or tiger skin seats. Compare the dainty vision of well engineered loveliness that is the opel manta A with a mk1 capri. I've owned both and enjoyed writing them off but the Manta was so much nicer to drive and work on. My dad owned nine of the dratted things at one point, God rest his sordid little soul, so I may be a little biased.

Bill

[Tipex]

It's often considered a bad sign if I agree with a point of view . I can't believe that Tipex said Capri and corner in the same sentence without including fire ball, ambulance, hideous power off oversteer, manure cart suspension or tiger skin seats.

Lol, yes but then you can apply that to literally any RWD car of the same vintage, the Capri (and I was never a fan of it's looks, and still dont like em) was bloody good fun, rwd, no poncey driving aids, just your right foot and the steering wheel to control it.

I had the pleasure of both the Capri, and a Manta GTE in my younger days, and while the Manta was generally a nicer place to sit, it was nowhere near as much fun to drive, ditto the Opel Monza, it was comfy and refined for it's time, but it was a horrid lumbering barge of a thing to drive, and you just couldn't hussle it quickly along a B road.

A Monza today, is pretty cool, and I'd rather have one than a Capri to be honest, purely due to coolness, but we now know that coolness has absolutely nothing to do with how much fun something is to drive!

[PinkPrincess]

Seeing as i own a vauxhall forum i have to say Vauxhall

I always thing that vauxhalls comes out with nice new deisgns whereas Ford gets boring - they all look similar and dull - something an old person would drive.

The new KA - reminds me of the New corsa- oooh vauxhall did that first!!