China GP Banter

[CarMad]

I think its funny, much of Hamilton's single minded behaviour echo's what Schumacher and Senna were like something that many people loved and liked most about them. But I guess if you don't support the driver in question, I never liked Schumacher!!, then they just come across as arrogant and aggressive.

Its almost comical reading your post's byron, your bias and lack of objectivity on matters Hamilton is almost comical.

[Barry Scott]

I think its funny, much of Hamilton's single minded behaviour echo's what Schumacher and Senna were like something that many people loved and liked most about them. But I guess if you don't support the driver in question, I never liked Schumacher!!, then they just come across as arrogant and aggressive.

Agree with you there CarMad.

It's a shame that this year, Lewis has got himself into these situations, but I guess thats just the born racer in him. You can't expect him or most of the other drivers to just let someone through easily where ever it is on the track, they all want the same thing and that's to win, not to let people passed. Look at Alonso on his own teammate entering the pits!

These things have also taken away the focus on what a superb drive Lewis had overall coming from close to the back basically after the wrong call for tyres and working his way back to 2nd (With the help of some safety cars I know)

Most of the great champions have done some questionable driving at some point (schumacher more than most!) but that what makes them such a joy to watch on track*.

I may be a bit bias overall as I am a Mclaren fan but still think Lewis' is one of the best current racing drivers on the grid.

* Accept Schumacher now who should'nt have come out of retirement!!!

[Mook]

Right, so who's going to win? I reckon

1 Button

2 Massa

3 Vettel

Alonso will retire with reliability probs, Hamilton will be too busy whinging to notice he's being overtaken and Webber will get tapped off by someone on the first corner. Rosberg will be fourth and that other German bloke in his team (who's name I forget) will finish somewhere around tenth...

Well I wasn't that far off with the predicition

[Teacake]

I may be a bit bias overall as I am a Mclaren fan but still think Lewis' is one of the best current racing drivers on the grid.

He's certainly the overtakingiest (if that's a word) by a big margin. It's a shame that controversy detracts from the fact that Hamilton has, at every race this season, been the man doing more passing than everyone else. There is of course the point to be made that race tactics have put him in the position of having to overtake so much, where other drivers have avoided making so much of a mountain for themselves, but if he can get a handle on strategy the same way as Button has been doing he will be very hard to beat.

I think the point about Senna and Schumacher and single-minded behaviour is well-made. After his debut season, I said something along the lines that you knew a driver was doing well if the governing body kept changing the rules to exclude whatever it was he had just done. It showed that he was looking for every opportunity and every angle. From staying in the car and getting himself lifted back onto the track, to brake-testing the pack under the safety car, he was trying every tactic to gain an advantage and unsettle his rivals. Just like Schumacher and Senna.

Back to China, I particularly enjoyed the duel between Schumacher and Hamilton. Anyone who thinks Schumacher hasn't still got it just needs to watch that couple of laps. Hamilton was much faster in clear air but Schumacher did everything (fairly) to keep him back. Very fun to watch him put the manners on the "new" boy.

[Mook]

I think the point about Senna and Schumacher and single-minded behaviour is well-made.

About being single-minded, yes. But that's the only place I would draw a comparison between Hamilton and Senna or Schumacher.

[Cuprabob]

Whether you are a fan of Hamilton or not you can't deny he does make it worth watching

[Mook]

It's not about being a fan of his or not (I'm neither), but yes, he does add to the spectacle

[byron13]

I think its funny, much of Hamilton's single minded behaviour echo's what Schumacher and Senna were like something that many people loved and liked most about them. But I guess if you don't support the driver in question, I never liked Schumacher!!, then they just come across as arrogant and aggressive.

Its almost comical reading your post's byron, your bias and lack of objectivity on matters Hamilton is almost comical.

As is your blind defence of the man!! Good for the goose and all that!

[Teacake]

As is your blind defence of the man!! Good for the goose and all that!

Most of the people on this forum aren't blind in defence of anything; they're quite prepared to criticise somebody when that criticism is due, and quite prepared to praise somebody for doing well, even if they don't like them as an individual. If a person can't reach a position where they accept it's possible for Hamilton to occasionally, just occasionally, do something right, and say so, it's them that's going to end up looking like the blind one.

[garcon magnifique]

If a person can't reach a position where they accept it's possible for Hamilton to occasionally, just occasionally, do something wrong, and say so, it's them that's going to end up looking like the blind one.

Edited for you.

In lots of ways Hamilton is a breath of fresh air. Despite McLaren's cynical attempts to make him a corporate machine, he is a raw racer. The great thing is that he will try those passing moves and take a few risks on track. He just needs to learn the right and wrong places to do it. It's not that difficult really - track good, pitlane bad.

Edit: Oh, and for the Hamilton fans, it's also ok to accept that he isn't (yet) the best out there and that it's really not such a disaster if Button beats him this season (which he will).

Edited April 19, 2010 by garcon

[byron13]

Most of the people on this forum aren't blind in defence of anything; they're quite prepared to criticise somebody when that criticism is due, and quite prepared to praise somebody for doing well, even if they don't like them as an individual. If a person can't reach a position where they accept it's possible for Hamilton to occasionally, just occasionally, do something right, and say so, it's them that's going to end up looking like the blind one.

Oh my god the hypocrisy is startling. Hamilton almost causes ANOTHER crash in the pitlane by his aggressive manner and I am the one in the wrong or "blind" as you decide! you mention criticism when due? All he had to do was pull in behind Vetel when he saw he had lost the place BUT NO my criticism is to then try and "race" for the place in the pitlane! That is not good or clever just STUPID.

[Mook]

Oh my god the hypocrisy is startling. Hamilton almost causes ANOTHER crash in the pitlane by his aggressive manner and I am the one in the wrong or "blind" as you decide! you mention criticism when due? All he had to do was pull in behind Vetel when he saw he had lost the place BUT NO my criticism is to then try and "race" for the place in the pitlane! That is not good or clever just STUPID.

It was a f*cked up move, but I don't think Hamilton was 100% to blame on the pitlane thing - his lollipop man let him out when he did to try and beat Vettel. Yes, he shouldn't have tried to do it, but equally Vettel shouldn't have squeezed him in the pitlane into the engineers from other teams.

[Teacake]

Oh my god the hypocrisy is startling. Hamilton almost causes ANOTHER crash in the pitlane by his aggressive manner and I am the one in the wrong or "blind" as you decide! you mention criticism when due? All he had to do was pull in behind Vetel when he saw he had lost the place BUT NO my criticism is to then try and "race" for the place in the pitlane! That is not good or clever just STUPID.

No. No. No. No. No. No. What I'm pointing out to you here is that the incident in the pitlane was not McLaren's fault, as you claimed. It was not solely Hamilton's fault, as you claimed. Vettel bears some of the responsibility along with Hamilton, which is why they rightly told him off too.

The near crash was just as much a result of Vettel trying to push Hamilton into the tyre guns of one of the other teams as it was Hamilton not giving way. If you watch it again, you'll see Hamilton swerve to avoid a collision with Vettel as soon as he sees him.

[Teacake]

Edited for you.

In lots of ways Hamilton is a breath of fresh air. Despite McLaren's cynical attempts to make him a corporate machine, he is a raw racer. The great thing is that he will try those passing moves and take a few risks on track. He just needs to learn the right and wrong places to do it. It's not that difficult really - track good, pitlane bad.

Edit: Oh, and for the Hamilton fans, it's also ok to accept that he isn't (yet) the best out there and that it's really not such a disaster if Button beats him this season (which he will).

Oh, absolutely it's possible he's not the all-round best out there. It wouldn't be unreasonable to claim that any of Vettel, Alonso, Massa, Kubica, Button could reasonably fit that description. While I would say I personally think that Hamilton is the raw fastest of them, clearly that's not all you need to win a championship.

I can maybe look at this a bit more coolly than some of the real Hamilton fans, as I can't really count myself among them. I want to like him, as I see in him the most exciting driver since Mansell, especially when he's under pressure, but he doesn't exactly endear himself with some of his behaviour.

[byron13]

No. No. No. No. No. No. What I'm pointing out to you here is that the incident in the pitlane was not McLaren's fault, as you claimed. It was not solely Hamilton's fault, as you claimed. Vettel bears some of the responsibility along with Hamilton, which is why they rightly told him off too.

The near crash was just as much a result of Vettel trying to push Hamilton into the tyre guns of one of the other teams as it was Hamilton not giving way. If you watch it again, you'll see Hamilton swerve to avoid a collision with Vettel as soon as he sees him.

But surely in context if Hamilton had not tried to bully his way into a single file lane beside Vetel, then Vetel would have not felt it necessary to position his car on the edge of the permitted lane!! If he had not he would have found himself pushed into the walls of the pit exit. He ran along side Vetel for a good 100 meters before yielding at the last moment, Chicken in the pitlane is not a good or clever game!!

Sure admire his gutsy spirit but for god sake when he takes it too far he needs to be punished and learn (again) from his rash actions or he never will!! Seriously he reminds me of a prodigal petulant child so used to being praised he finds it odd when he does wrong and people jump on him. For his OWN good. If he stopped all this rubbish (and there have been a fair few now eh?) he would be a much better driver and more successful for it as he deserves.

[Mook]

Sure admire his gutsy spirit but for god sake when he takes it too far he needs to be punished and learn (again) from his rash actions or he never will!!

What will work though? Nothing seems to have - so far.

The ticking off he and Vettel got won't make any difference. Nor will a fine - US$10K or whatever is hardly going to dint him. Docking points would work, but then the whole world would be up in arms, regardless of who got them docked.

[Magro101]

I think its probably hard to see things from the drivers perspective, and this is a great reason as to why old drivers are now aiding the marshals in making decisions.

Its easy enough to judge anything during or after a race, but during something as fast-paced as F1 racing, anything thats unexpected may completely throw you off.

If Hamilton was released, would he not have assumed it to be safe to enter the pitlane? I mean, that is why the lollipop-man is there, to release him safely. When he suddenly pulled up alongside Vettel im sure there was probably a second of "what-the-****?".

Same goes for many incidents....

[Mook]

I agree Magro, but what you can't forget is that this is these guys' profession, so they need to be mega aware of everything going on around them.

In all of this, the McLaren lollipop man is the main culprit, but equally, Hamilton shouldn't have done what he did, and Vettel shouldn't have done what he did either, IMO

[Teacake]

But surely in context if Hamilton had not tried to bully his way into a single file lane beside Vetel, then Vetel would have not felt it necessary to position his car on the edge of the permitted lane!!

Magro101 is right; it was a WTF moment. Any driver would have felt entitled to drive into the permitted lane when he was released. Hamilton didn't try to bully his way in, he actually got out of it as soon as he saw another car pull alongside him, in what to him would have looked like an overtaking attempt, which in effect it was. The only person who could see the situation unfolding was Vettel and he, unsurprisingly, stuck to his guns.

They carried on down the pitlane for 100m or so, as you say. If they had carried on as they were, they may well with a cool head from both drivers have both been able to clear the pit exit and commence racing. Instead, Vettel decided to push Hamilton away from the permitted lane. It can very clearly be seen that Hamilton is edged over so that he has to take avoiding action to prevent himself running into the hanging tyre gun lines from one of the other teams. Not only that, Vettel's manoeuvre points Hamilton at the wall at the end of the pitlane. This wasn't necessary for Vettel to do, as you claim. He could have stayed on his line and cleared the pitlane with no problem. He didn't. He must have known that if he didn't deal with Hamilton there and then he'd be having to deal with him in the first corner, and Hamilton might well have the advantage. He moved across on his rival to make it impossible for Hamilton to stay with him, therefore he was making a racing manoeuvre in the pitlane and a potentially dangerous one to boot. Hence the reprimand.

[byron13]

Magro101 is right; it was a WTF moment. Any driver would have felt entitled to drive into the permitted lane when he was released. Hamilton didn't try to bully his way in, he actually got out of it as soon as he saw another car pull alongside him, in what to him would have looked like an overtaking attempt, which in effect it was. The only person who could see the situation unfolding was Vettel and he, unsurprisingly, stuck to his guns.

They carried on down the pitlane for 100m or so, as you say. If they had carried on as they were, they may well with a cool head from both drivers have both been able to clear the pit exit and commence racing. Instead, Vettel decided to push Hamilton away from the permitted lane. It can very clearly be seen that Hamilton is edged over so that he has to take avoiding action to prevent himself running into the hanging tyre gun lines from one of the other teams. Not only that, Vettel's manoeuvre points Hamilton at the wall at the end of the pitlane. This wasn't necessary for Vettel to do, as you claim. He could have stayed on his line and cleared the pitlane with no problem. He didn't. He must have known that if he didn't deal with Hamilton there and then he'd be having to deal with him in the first corner, and Hamilton might well have the advantage. He moved across on his rival to make it impossible for Hamilton to stay with him, therefore he was making a racing manoeuvre in the pitlane and a potentially dangerous one to boot. Hence the reprimand.

Lets just remember it is not a 2 lane highway in the pit lane shall we IT IS SINGLE FILE. If someone pulled that on you on the public highway IE trying to push you into the kerb in a single lane who would be at fault?? Not the guy in the lane already - simples!! Also pit lane limiter is on I suspect so both fixed at whatever this years speed limit is! Hamilton has no where to go as he is in NO lane so where should he go? Behind! What does he try to do? Run into Vetel and his lane!! Stupid.

[Mook]

Not only that, Vettel's manoeuvre points Hamilton at the wall at the end of the pitlane. This wasn't necessary for Vettel to do, as you claim.

Take it one step further if they'd both exited the pitlane alongside each other - if you cross the white line onto the racing part of the circuit, you get penalised - and Vettel was first in line to have to do that if that's what happened.

So I go back to my original comment - Mr Lollipop shouldn't have done it. But he did, and there we have it...

[Magro101]

Byron, I'll be sure to let Hamilton know before the next race to slowly pull out whilst checking both his mirrors and his blind spot next time. I mean, theres no rush, right? Not like it's a race or anything.

[Mook]

Mirrors? On an F1 car?

Oh, you mean those useless lumps out at the edge of the car...

[byron13]

Byron, I'll be sure to let Hamilton know before the next race to slowly pull out whilst checking both his mirrors and his blind spot next time. I mean, theres no rush, right? Not like it's a race or anything.

Hell it's only peoples lives Magro! If the pit box in-front had been populated with mechanics then Hamilton could have mown them all down with his actions, hey lets just let him do what he wants because as you say it's a race and he makes it exciting that's all that counts!!!

[Teacake]

Take it one step further if they'd both exited the pitlane alongside each other - if you cross the white line onto the racing part of the circuit, you get penalised - and Vettel was first in line to have to do that if that's what happened.

Yeah, I thought about that. If they had made it out of the end of the pitlane, all Vettel would have needed to do was hold his line. He had the direct route into the white-lined section, and if Hamilton had held on he would have ended up on the grass or eating armco. Which would be a fair racing situation, out on the track.

Lets just remember it is not a 2 lane highway in the pit lane shall we IT IS SINGLE FILE. If someone pulled that on you on the public highway IE trying to push you into the kerb in a single lane who would be at fault??

But this is not the same. He didn't try to push Vettel into the kerb.

Here (before the F1 bosses get it taken down) is some footage, some of which I don't think was shown on TV. YouTube - Hamilton Vettel Pit lane Incident. It's pretty clear on this that Hamilton didn't try to push Vettel anywhere.