Chri5, you'll like this...

[NewNiceMrMe]

I have thought about posting this for, ooo, at least 4 days.

I wasn't going to, then I was, then I wasn't, then I read a few of Chri5's posts about his 'frustrations' with older teenagers. So, I thought I'd give him something to feel a bit better about and realise that he's not the only one who wants to go lock themselves in a dark place for fear of what they might do to if they don't.

Our eldest is 18. Almost 19. She's had a privileged life, in my opinion. In fact I now think she has been spoiled rotten. See I've changed my tack on that recently. What I used to see as privileges I now see as bad choices. Amazing what a few extra years do to you.

As most on here know, we bought her first car on her 17th birthday and she became the recipient of a rather nice electric blue Mini Cooper. Not new, but with only 22k on the clock, full history and a car that most 17 years olds, and older, would kill for. We paid for her driving lessons, blah blah blah. We've funded her lavish social life, blah blah blah, she's had the best private education we could afford, we've paid for a boyfriend to come on holiday with us before, and so on and so forth. She has even started catching her mother up in terms of the number of designer handbags she seems to have. Don't pan me for it, I know. Just sit back and think how right you've got the parenting balance and couldn't possibly make the same mistakes. If that's genuinely the case, I admire you for it. Honestly. Mistakes have been made, big ones. Don't rub it in, please.

But, anyway....

Three weeks ago she went on her first overseas holiday with her friends. Four of them.

We were worried. She's a very intelligent girl, but not street savvy. After all, how could she be for fecks sake. But, much to my surprise the whole holiday passed without incident. She came back happy as larry and no-one had died, got lost, been mugged, raped, fallen pregant and anything else that parents worry about.

Great. She's learned! We haven't done such a bad job after all! Pats on backs all round and so on.

Until 4 days ago.

I am going to keep this bit short.

MrsMe rang me from her mobile, whilst out shopping on Saturday. She'd had a phone call from one of the mothers of one of the other girls that went on the holiday.

Did we know about the tatoos.

The fecking what?

Yes, our beloved, and her friend, have got lovely chav 7" tatoo's from the base of their neck in a sort of 'lily' design.

Done in Greece. But the tatooist had certificates. So thats fecking fine.

Without our knowing. But shes 18. So thats fecking fine.

Thing is, we'd have found out soon when she jets off to Mauritius with us - only to come back a week early because her social life is more important.

Can you tell by now?

I am close to manslaughter.

Chri5, you really should took solace from this.

Her response?

"My life".

Now, all the knifes are securely locked away, there are no firearms in the house and I am resisting being in the same room as her. So don't panic, there will no headlines.

But JESUS FECKING WEPT. GIVE ME FECKING STRENGTH.

That is it.

Forgive my not necessarily replying to what may be posted in response to this. I'm not being arsey in saying that. Parents will understand what I mean. I just might not want to say what I really want to say.

p.s. Yes I will annoy all the non-parents by saying that whilst entitled to an opinion, and welcome to give one, this is a fecking hard thing in life. Jesus it's hard. Parents will understand what I mean, truly, much more. You don't do this, but you do do that. Oh what the feck am I saying. Fail. Major fail.

Edited July 27, 2010 by MrMe

[Maxyboy]

Not great but it could have been so much worse.

A tattoo isn't the end of he world.

And she's young, guve her time, she will make way larger f@ck ups than that.

[eldavo69]

She's right though, it is her life. Offer to take her to the council offices to sign up for a nice local authority pad and see just how independent she wants to be then!

[Andrew]

Blimey. I'm not a parent but I sympathise entirely.

An amusing point (I hope), would it have helped if it wasn't a lily but the Globe and Laurels instead?

[Calm Chris]

Cameron got his lip pierced x 2 in a booth, in Croydon's Witherspoon pub about 6 months ago.

They look like shite and I wasn't very happy. I've moved my position from one of concerned parent to disinterested party because the father v son thing has become so far removed from the ideal.

He was 18 x3 weeks ago and we forked out £500 for booze and food and had a garden party (15:00- 04:00) for him and his 40+ crew of socially twisted middle England kids, who at 18-20 show no signs of accepting the full elements of adult life.

Yes they drink, stay out for days, go to gigs, shag- but none seem up to going to work, covering communal living chores or behaving in anything other that a self obsessed, self centred, selfish life of hedonistic fun.

All kids are ******s

Mine did the absolute minimum for Uni entry, Xbox was the revision vehicle for A'levels. Yet he is still convinced he's off to read English in September (please god, yes, yes and yes some more).

He has booked his £95 per week halls room with on suite, other than that nothing.

When asked how he intends to help support Uni he goes on about working, yet has never worked ever for money. Indeed on a dozen occasions I've offered him £6ph cash to work with me and has always had better things to do.

Mum had to go with him to the jobcentre he was scared and worried about a job seekers interview

We take £30 out of his £110 fortnightly claim and he now 'thinks' he is contributing to the house

I despair since his ethic compared to my own is so far removed (I started f/t work aged 17 and left home for good before my 18th).

At the moment he is away for 9 days with his girlfriend and Mum, Dad and daughter are loving the peace and relaxed atmosphere.

Depending on how things progress and results due 18 August will be the big indicator he gets either envelope A or envelope B.

A contains a cheque for a laptop and 3 post dated cheques to help with the Uni drinking funds over the 1st year.

B contains a cheque for three months rent and deposit for a room in a MOH house.

If he decides that he won't take either then fine, he then gets a rule book and will be told to tow the line or leave.

I'd much rather we had a good strong father son thing, but we haven't and even his mum accepts that he needs to have a proper taste of reality.

He needs to accept that life isn't free, and that his life under the family roof comes with the responsibilities of sharing space with others. That at 18 the nurtured child rule no longer applies and that adult life comes with certain duties and responsibilities.

As for your daughter well she sounds as if her attitude to life mirrors my son's.

We must be to blame for trying to give them what we never had, rarely saying no to any request and being over tolerant of past and current misdemeanors.

We just have to accept that beating them from a very early age and chaining them up at night would have been better

[Pincher]

And I thought I had it bad with my eldest (10 tomorrow) refusing to read Black Beauty over the Summer Hols, as part of her homework, as she 'doesn't like horses'!

[bells0]

My 1st is due 3 months today - looks like i'm going to have an interesting time with him in 16/17/18 years time!!

[Calm Chris]

As for the daughter, well she's only 13 and eh, well, you can make up your own minds as to how much trouble she's going to be.

Please avoid nasty comments

She did win the year maths and science golds, so she seems to be managing school and growing up. I have informed her that the 1st boy that turns up either with a crash helmet and / or facial hair will be beaten

[cruiser647]

My 1st is due 3 months today - looks like i'm going to have an interesting time with him in 16/17/18 years time!!

Depends how and what you are like, your attitude to things and if you say yes to give them things.

As above, both seem to have had 'sheltered' lives with lots of gifts and things that the parents never had. (which is fair enough, as we all the kids to have what we didn't).

Sometimes though, because they can be afforded, things are jut given without thinking about the future.

So, even if you can afford things for them, say no or make them do some sort of work to earn them. Do that earlier in their lives rather than later.

Even with full time working parents, the above examples haven't cottoned on to what can happen and what you can get with hard work.

We are doing (trying) this with our eldest daughter at 13. Rewarding her for good work - and tell her when she's goofed up. But then again, I think Chri5 used this tactic as well...... . ho hum.

Maybe girls are easier to mould! He says hopefully........

edit to add - just seen Chri5's post.........d'oh!

Edited July 28, 2010 by cruiser647

[Tipex]

I'm certainly no expert, my eldest isn't even 3 yet, so I've got all this to come, but certainly sounds like spoilt brat syndrome!

It amazes me how much people will pander to their childrens whims, like paying for her (she's a fully grown adult) to go on holiday, fair enough, your a family I can understand that, but then paying for her to fly home early by herself, I'm sorry, but my attitude would be 'your either on the holiday or you aren't.' no messing about with separate bookings for her, I just wouldn't pander to it.

I guess it's easy to say that, being as my two are still so young, I still want to give them everything, as my parents for me, I had a privileged upbringing, and I want the same for my kids, but I always had to earn everything I got from my parents, as my children will have to earn everything they will get from me, it certainly worked for my parents, I've been in constant employment since the age if 12.

[garcon magnifique]

I'm just glad I'm not a parent. My elder goddaughter's 13 and that's scary enough. (Although to be fair she's the epitomy of style and sense compared to some you see).

My younger goddaughter is one year old next week - her father has already ordered the shotgun...

[NewNiceMrMe]

I completely recognise Chri5's comment about the peer group "who at 18-20 show no signs of accepting the full elements of adult life". Absolutely. There is no seeming sense of what is to come. None at all.

The ethic of not buying something just because it can be afforded is of course one I would support wholly. However, the twist in this is that the problems, all the problems, have only really appeared in the last year.

There has been a change.

Things changed after we came off holiday last year. Up until then anything we'd spent wasn't just spent because we could do so - it was because she'd shown maturity in the receipt of such privileges. We had no concerns. She'd had a summer job in a local shop, just doing mundane things, but she was working. She also got a job in a local charity shop, giving time on a Saturday morning.

Then it all stopped. She packed the paid for job in saying she had too much work on with her A levels. The charity job stopped with it. I think, in retrospect, things then went into decline and we just didn't pick up on it soon enough.

We continued getting the car serviced, putting the fuel in it, paying the RFL, giving her an 'allowance' which has been too much and basically she's had a life of riley and now it is obvious she doesn't want to work. That, again as Chri5 said, is so much against the grain of what her mum and I have ever done that it sticks in my throat.

She's off to Uni soon but it'll mean staying at home because she picked a local one. Surprise surprise. I hate to say it, I really really do, but in some ways I was hoping she wouldn't get in so we could force her off to work. But she will, she's intelligent and that is another thing that grinds on me. She knows.

What changed it? I don't know. Maybe a build up of far too much and when she experienced work she decided it was something that got in the way of her social life so she knocked it on the head. That's my feeling anyway.

The tatoo was just so against anything she has ever been told. We both hate them and she knew that. Rebellion? Perhaps.

I don't see things changing (I'd love to lie and say oh don't worry we'll sort this out cos' we're wonderful) soon although we have made it clear what the score is now.

But, here is a finishing line (or few paragraphs).

In preparing for Uni we said we'd finance it. We'd been paying for private school so it wasn't as if we'd miss anything. We weren't eligible for anything under any grants or whatever they are However, despite not needing it....we have discovered she applied for a Student Loan. No doubt that'll get wasted and she'll be saddled with a debt for £3,000 (thats what it was for) until she finally wakes up and smells the roses.

Shipping a daughter out to council properties is easily said, and something I'd subscribe to as the hard lesson in life - but how many parents would actually do it? I know we wouldn't, so I'm big enough to admit it'll not happen. Call it weak, I don't know on this one.

As I say, there was a change somewhere, perhaps with a split from her boyfriend, and someone who had always been grateful, had a part time job, etc - changed into a lazy ungrateful swine overnight. Literally. With a tatoo. I hate tatoo's on women. She knows that.

Image obsessed, yes that'd apply. She is. Thinks we're made of money? Maybe she does, but I don't think so and that actually hurts me more. She knows we work fecking hard for what we have and that if we stop working we won't have - and I think that is worse. She knows we're not multi-millionairres sat drawing cash from an investment account that tops up the spend every month. I think I could live with it if that was the case!

I am considering making the car disappear tonight. Seriously. I haven't decided yet, but it may be compounded. Fergy, you got space in your garage?

Edited July 28, 2010 by MrMe

[Calm Chris]

My son suggests he 'hates' me, he mentioned it 1st when I originally said no to his 18th garden party.

Then he sulked and eventually (having been advised that no venue exists that is happy to have kids 18th birthdays due to the drunken fall outs) I conceded.

We bought a marque, spent £150 on a decent hire sound system, 450 bottles of bud (and various silly coloured 'pops'), burgers, chicken kebabs, lamb kebabs, 10 pizzas and all the other stuff. Then we were his slaves for the night, cooking, cleaning, sorting out puke etc.

At no stage did he offer thanks and so 4 days after I pulled him up about it. He agreed that it was a wonderful party, the best his mates had been too, but absolutely refused to accept that our efforts deserved some flowers for Mum or a simple thank you to dad.

Having held off while doing his exams, and then held off due to his party being due, post party I explained a few things to him.

The theme was simple children = nurture, adults = community ethic.

The community in question is our family and it is not unreasonable to expect certain tasks being done by him.

He should expect to:-

Sort out his own clothes, wash and iron.

Assist with the meal prep (one of:- shopping, cooking, washing up) occasionally.

Take his room tidy.

Clean out rooms after he has messed them up (empty tins, crisp packets, biscuits etc).

Generally have a better ethic towards not being a burden.

Think more seriously about Uni, attempt a game plan for his future.

His reply was negative and he continues to sulk.

So I've given up- rather than have silly amounts of anguish we now await the A'level results and will reconsider the situation when all is revealed.

Between now and then, since he refused the offer of 2 weeks in Corfu I've decided not to go because he simply cannot be trusted with the care of the family property on his own. The wife and daughter will be going together.

The cherry being that the moment he found out I was staying he announced he'd be staying with the g/f in Kent for the duration

Love the lad, but I don't like him at the moment and think that until he becomes independent and the true light of life's realities hit him- he won't change.

As for Ms MrMe I wouldn't hide the car, I'd simply pull the 100% funding for it and make her suffer by having to use her own money to sort it. That means less for drinks, clothes and club entry fees.

Unfortunately body art is huge and is something they all want, so that's a hard call banning it- end of. However she must understand what body marking means and why it could be to her detriment. You should also mention that even though you were in service, the Corp where such badges are seen as honour, you avoided them and explain why.

I'd also be mean and sit them down and go through the figures of cost to you for her existence and suggest areas where she should accept duties as a pay back. If she refuses, then restrictions apply.

As for student loans did you know that the Student loan book will be sold by HM Gov UK to a bank ? When that happens I suspect the 0.5% interest charge will change, and they have been talking about linking the repayment of the loan to a special tax code to recover it quickly.

[NewNiceMrMe]

My son suggests he 'hates' me, he mentioned it 1st when I originally said no to his 18th garden party.

Don't feel too bad about that. I got that ages ago. That sort of comment is like water off a ducks back to me. Words rarely hurt me, it's more the actions that I take issue with. I think teenagers say a lot in the heat of the moment and it can last a long time, but few would end up genuinely thinking it years later.

Then he sulked and eventually (having been advised that no venue exists that is happy to have kids 18th birthdays due to the drunken fall outs) I conceded.

We bought a marque, spent £150 on a decent hire sound system, 450 bottles of bud (and various silly coloured 'pops'), burgers, chicken kebabs, lamb kebabs, 10 pizzas and all the other stuff. Then we were his slaves for the night, cooking, cleaning, sorting out puke etc.

At no stage did he offer thanks and so 4 days after I pulled him up about it. He agreed that it was a wonderful party, the best his mates had been too, but absolutely refused to accept that our efforts deserved some flowers for Mum or a simple thank you to dad.

For her 18th we took her and 12 friends to a very nice restaurant and everything was on us. The final bill was somewhere in the region of £450 and to be fair she did thank us for it. That said, it was apparently very uncool of me to crack jokes in front of her friends. She was probably right on that count.

That masks the truth though, because she'd chosen her 16th as her main birthday and we hired a local nightclub for the night. 80 plus folk turned up, the bouncers had a fun time stopping U18's from smuggling alcohol in but in general it passed without incident, albeit with a big bill. So, I took issue with the 18th party. I said it was too much after she'd had double that spent on the 16th. The compromise was that it was 12 people at the 18th - and not the 25 she'd originally asked for. In retrospect we shouldn't have had one at all. But oh, the benefit of hindsight.

Sort out his own clothes, wash and iron.

Ours wouldn't know the meaning of self sufficiency in washing and ironing. I don't think she'd know how to turn the washing machine on and it is constant bone of contention.

Assist with the meal prep (one of:- shopping, cooking, washing up) occasionally.

The age old argument in our house is that as soon as either I or her mum walk through the door we're asked what we're having to eat and when. If it isn't now, or in 10 minutes, the huffs start. She has done that to her Mum when she'd returned from a 5 hour trip and 17 hour day at work once. There is no understanding of doing something for yourself and for parents not being slaves. None at all. I have to be honest and say this has been the biggest cause of strife. It makes me want to explode.

Take his room tidy.

Clean out rooms after he has messed them up (empty tins, crisp packets, biscuits etc).

Generally have a better ethic towards not being a burden.

Agree, agree and agree. Do we get anywhere? Rarely.

Think more seriously about Uni, attempt a game plan for his future.

Ours has planned Uni and her course has been decided upon for a good 18 months. Where that leads is anyones guess. The truth is she thinks she'll just inherit her mums company and life will be a doddle. Shame we'll have sold it off for retirement long before then.

Or, she thinks she'll get a job there or in my company. Neither will happen. That is something we will never do. She was told a job would be there if the work ethic came with it - and she lost interest. In fact both of us offered her summer jobs this year and told her what she'd be doing and that we'd pay her £7.50 an hour. Seemed more than reasonable to me for general office stuff. She decided that filing and phone answering wasn't for her, nor was tidying my accounts up, so she said she'd rather not bother.

That nailed it on the head and we have both agreed offers of employment will never come again unless she could demonstrate she was the most capable applicant for a job - and we wouldn't just 'create' a job. There are too many issues in employment law these days for either of us to end up with employee issues.

His reply was negative and he continues to sulk.

Sulk, huffy or whatever it is, I just view it as a state of mind she is always in these days. It bugs me, and it'll wind me up something chronic if she starts her moods when we're on holiday. What should be the holiday of a lifetime is not going to be allowed to turn into a 'give me attention, I'm bored and want to dictate everythng we do' trip.

She thinks we should be going out at 6pm and coming in at 4am - with her 7 year old sister. All we want to do on holiday is relax from the mayhem of working life. She can't see that and finds going out for nice meals or staying in the lap of luxury to be a chore. We're both prepped for it this year though. If she sulks, she can sulk alone.

So I've given up- rather than have silly amounts of anguish we now await the A'level results and will reconsider the situation when all is revealed.

Maybe we have a lot of parity there, because whilst I expect her to get the A's she needs, I think her plans aren't geared around future success and there is no doubt she has chosen her Uni based on where her friends will be and not wanting to miss out on the social scene with then. Then again, maybe the majority of students do that.

Between now and then, since he refused the offer of 2 weeks in Corfu I've decided not to go because he simply cannot be trusted with the care of the family property on his own. The wife and daughter will be going together.

I feel for you on that one but I wouldn't have done it. You might not be able to get the 'supervision' we can though. See, when she returns from our holiday after a week, little does she know (yet) that her Auntie is staying with her - and that all form of parties and guests are banned. We're keeping that as a surprise for her. It is an area in which we would never compromise. Frankly, I don't trust her or her friends to be even remotely responsible on their own in our house.

The cherry being that the moment he found out I was staying he announced he'd be staying with the g/f in Kent for the duration

Can't you go and just lock everything up in that case? I wouldn't be missing my holiday thats for sure.

Love the lad, but I don't like him at the moment

I almost wrote something similar earlier. My feelings are the same.

and think that until he becomes independent and the true light of life's realities hit him- he won't change.

Again, I would concur. We just need to find the right recipe for making those realities hit home without creating WWIII. MrsMe think it'll 'pass'. I am not so sure.

As for Ms MrMe I wouldn't hide the car, I'd simply pull the 100% funding for it and make her suffer by having to use her own money to sort it. That means less for drinks, clothes and club entry fees.

We discussed this last night. Typically, we've just put another years RFL on it, it's just had a full MINI service and 2 new Pirelli's and I wouldn't be surprised if it had a full tank of fuel too.

Sods law isn't it. Servicing will not be happening through us again, nor will RFL, we agreed on that. MrsMe was reluctant to agree to fuel as a tank full seems to last two weeks (thankfully whilst she is never at home, she doesn't actually drive miles and miles everywhere). We'll see.

Unfortunately body art is huge and is something they all want, so that's a hard call banning it- end of. However she must understand what body marking means and why it could be to her detriment. You should also mention that even though you were in service, the Corp where such badges are seen as honour, you avoided them and explain why.

We've had that. Her response was outstanding.

"Am I meant to be impressed? Think not."

Swiftly followed by "It's different now, you don't understand." In fact that seems to be a stock answer to many things when I think about it.

I have realised that any mention of past lives or ethics just induces yawn syndrome. I gave in. She told me I was a computer geek now and anything else was history and I should get over it. Must admit I thought that was a bit funny.

I'd also be mean and sit them down and go through the figures of cost to you for her existence and suggest areas where she should accept duties as a pay back. If she refuses, then restrictions apply.

I don't like to make them think we loathe them it. I think it is difficult balance when raising this one, as much as I agree with the overall sentiment. I'm not very good at being diplomatic and reasoned when this type of thing is concerned. We've tried so much reasoning in the past that my solution is now brute force. That is where MrsMe and I differ - I would, genuinely would, carry out major plans of redress, but whether MrsMe could go through with them is something altogether different.

I think I have also got to a point where it has caused so much friction that you start to think - feck it. That's not a method I would generally subscribe to, but I do often wonder what the fecking point in trying to reason with someone is.

As for student loans did you know that the Student loan book will be sold by HM Gov UK to a bank ? When that happens I suspect the 0.5% interest charge will change, and they have been talking about linking the repayment of the loan to a special tax code to recover it quickly.

On this one neither of us could give a jot. If she ends up in debt, she'll sort it out. All our accounts are joint (or at least the ones I know of!) so there is little chance of MrsMe having a weak moment and paying it off without me finding out about it.

A friend of mine says I should just let her get on with it.

He has a 27 year old son who was problematic, though even he'd say not to this extent, and he is now a shining example of society. He thinks more teenagers nowadays go through this 'phase' and that all we have done is amplify its impact and we must wait longer for it to die down in volume.

I think I might be dead before that happens.

[eldavo69]

If you decide you do want to remove car privileges I can fit 6 cars on my drive easily so you're welcome to park it here for a while.

And I thought a 3 year old was bad!

[NewNiceMrMe]

Well I've come in tonight and she wants help producing a CV.

Must be applying for a job of an Attitude Lecturer.

Hmm, I'm suspicious. She won't say why, just says 'for a job, obviously'.

[Maxyboy]

Well I've come in tonight and she wants help producing a CV.

Must be applying for a job of an Attitude Lecturer.

Hmm, I'm suspicious. She won't say why, just says 'for a job, obviously'.

I'm guessing she is a lurker on a certain car forum.

[Fergy]

Fergy, you got space in your garage?

As it happens yes I do. The 1er went on Monday so got a spare garage until September 1st, its yours if you need it

[NewNiceMrMe]

Thanks Fergy, can I move a bed, a laptop and an aquarium into it instead?

[Milo]

If you decide you do want to remove car privileges I can fit 6 cars on my drive easily so you're welcome to park it here for a while.

And I thought a 3 year old was bad!

Bah. I'll garage it indefinitely in exchange for one of those monitors.

Mine is getting lonely as I'm back to not driving again and the Qashqai stops on the drive.

All kids go through all of the above at some stage, to some degree. I was apparently a lovely child right up to about 17 (although with hindsight, they never knew the half of it). Then I became a right little shite, even I will admit it. Nearly 23 years later and my wife would argue I haven't changed.

Whether it's tatoos, drink, drugs or general twatness, I think all kids rebel at some point. I fully expect to face the same problems in years ahead. Mind you, any mention of Goths and I'll go f*cking ballistic; there is a line in the sand that simply cannot be crossed.

My brother was an arse earlier in life than me and I followed in his footsteps later so all in all, my parents had a 10 stretch when they must have wondered was it all worth it. I daresay had internet forums been around in their day, they too would have been hammering the keyboard in despair.

The thing is, we all grow up and in time, things can be put in perspective. Not much help in the heat of the moment I admit but kids/family are your flesh and blood and always will be.

All you can do is your best and try and guide them along their way.

When things go slightly skew wiff, it's easy for others to look over your shoulder and say you shouldn't have bought them this or you should have done that but in reality 99% of people would lay down their lives for their kids and only want to provide them with the best they can.

Sometimes it takes a short, sharp shock to make kids realise just what it is their parents do for them, other times it takes many mistakes and a lot of time before the penny drops....

[NewNiceMrMe]

Wise words. But you ain't getting a monitor.

[Thorburn]

Ours wouldn't know the meaning of self sufficiency in washing and ironing. I don't think she'd know how to turn the washing machine on and it is constant bone of contention.

Could be a blessing is disguise, I've made the mistake of putting a dish washer tablet in with the washing before.

Twice.

In a row.

This year.

[cruiser647]

How were you when you were teenagers?

How much grief did you give your folks? (MrMe and Chri5)

[Andrew]

A similar post to Milo I'm about to construct.

When I was younger I seemed to have the work ethic and a requirement for my own money from a young age so I had two paper rounds, Sunday job etc etc. This in turn fuelled weekends away at mate's houses at the age of 13 and 14 getting bladdered on cider and smoking more than just cigarettes. Then the school found out and I was grounded ... for two years. Just so happened this coincided with my GCSE's so I had little choice but to focus on them - the social scene all but packed up anyway ... well it would with CID visiting each of our houses.

However, while the results were good and set me on track for the then career of a pilot, my dad and I never got on. We had our first physical fight when I was 13, followed by many many more crossed words with the final showdown when I was about 25 and a very fit Royal Marine Reserve recruit.

Since I moved out (7 years ago now) things are loads better but we still don't see eye to eye. Thing is though my brother is worse with his than I was. I did at least earn a living and help round the house on occasion - he doesn't and is approaching the ripe old age of 31. Him and my dad are just not compatible - they are, in truth, far too similar. But he has never been to uni (he wasn't academic at all - he got the height, I got the brains) and never lived away from home.

So, the conclusion then to my post is that I suspect this sort of thing happens all the time and that it is probably just waiting for a move out to uni or something - a sense of independence works wonders. You probably know this but I'm just giving my thoughts. Of course the problem comes when uni finishes and the skint ex-student comes back to the family home - can cause the same problems. Indeed, it did with me and my dad since the last bust up was after uni.

The other point of course is that I'm always amazed at how different two siblings can be - I have a work ethic and an independence desire, my brother does too probably but doesn't have the vision to achieve it. We were never spoiled although my mum, being a mum, does have a tendency to bail my bro out of some of his more tricky financial commitments. I, on the other hand, have been approached by my old man for loans.

Maybe then another conclusion is that maybe none of this has anything to do with how you have played the parenting card ... everyone is different and the same result might have come out of making very different decisions.

[Dave]

I agree with both Chris's comments...

I have 3 daughters.. one who will be 14 in a couple of months, a 12 year old and a 9 year old.. absolutely love them to bits.. they are wonderful daughters. We have a great time together, they are doing fantastically well at school.. life couldn't be better.

However, they want for nothing.. they have everything they could ever want. They even mention that they get comments at school that they are rich! (I wish.. Mum & Dad just work very hard!). They have the best clothes, iPhone 4's, laptops, travelled the world (New Zealand, California, Florida, Skiing in Europe etc) etc. None of this I mind, and i am pleased to see them enjoy them.

The downside to all this is that they have no concept of money... Where it comes from and how hard you need to work to accumulate the stuff. It does worry me that in the future they will struggle to bring in the sort of income required to continue their lifestyle..

Its tough.. do you give them the best childhood so they can look back in future years and say "you know, I had a great childhood" , or will they expect the bank of Mum & Dad to fund them throughout their adulthood?

Because I agree with you guys.. there comes a point when kids turn into adults and they have to take responsibility for their own lives. I could in all possibility set them up in business, but i can not & will not work it for them.

We've had it fairly easy up until now, but i think that soon we will have to ask the oldest to start earning some money (within our business) so that she realises that rewards need to be earned...

Who said parenting was easy??