jhibbin Posted May 29, 2006 Report Share Posted May 29, 2006 Since my GTi is at the menders I'm left with only acedemic tit bits, but did anyone else see Fifth Gear tonight? Tiff drove the new F599 and didn't like it but interestingly he commented that Ferrari have improved the semi-auto gear change to 100ms, and he commented that the F1 car is around 30ms. I have seen various times for the DSG upshift between 8 and 80 ms ; VW seem to claim 40ms (linky ). As I said all fairly acedemic but still amazing that a £170K F599 is not as fast on the upshift as a £22K Golf GTI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted May 29, 2006 Report Share Posted May 29, 2006 This is probably due to the dual clutch technology which VW have developed which always has two cogs instantly ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs Posted May 29, 2006 Report Share Posted May 29, 2006 Interestingly it was Jason Plato who raved about the VW/Audi DSG when testing the GTI, also on Fifth Gear. And Andy Walsh at Car Limits rates the VAG system way above the equivalent Ferrari or BMW one. Note on Fifth Gear how Tiff complained about the surging of the Ferrari box.... Very different to how smooth the VAG DSG really is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhibbin Posted May 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 I wonder if its a power thing ? Could a DSG type design take the power of 400bhp+ V12 ? Whats the largest VAG lump paired with a DSG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skifly Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 a veyron 100bhp monster...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan32 Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 In the MKIV R32 with DSG(in Europe), it was torque that was limiting factor with upgrades. Can't remember what VW rated the box at but wasn't as high as the standard gearbox. Have heard that there is a turbo'ed DSG R32 in europe so assuming there is a way around this or it has been strengthened which means it could handle 400+bhp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 [ QUOTE ] a veyron 100bhp monster...! [/ QUOTE ] ....I'm sure you meant to write "1,000bhp" . Torque is the major consideration for DSG I understand. I am also told that, as a rule of thumb, VW generally have a +40% 'safe headroom' in their cars without more major modifications being done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazza_g Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 [ QUOTE ] As I said all fairly acedemic but still amazing that a £170K F599 is not as fast on the upshift as a £22K Golf GTI. [/ QUOTE ] I'm sure Ferrari / Porsche et al are working on a something similar to DSG otherwise as, by design, their current systems will always be slower that the DSG in the Golf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Amazing how "The People's Car" (Volks Wagen) has always been a leader . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonl Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 I saw that review too. Looked to me like Tiff got the Needle with Ferrari for leaving him waiting... Hence the poo report. (not enough enjoyable time on the track) Have to say, that Gearbox sounded alot quicker than DSG to me. [ QUOTE ] As I said all fairly acedemic but still amazing that a £170K F599 is not as fast on the upshift as a £22K Golf GTI. [/ QUOTE ] If Ferrari have got the F599 to change in 100ms, that makes it 60ms quicker than the DSG anyway. But to all intense and puroposes, it's splitting hairs. All DSG does is enable F1 speed gearchanges in an everyday "affordable" cars. It's not "better" than the Ferrari gearbox and does have it's drawbacks IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhibbin Posted May 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 LeMan> DSG is 60ms quicker than F599 not otherway round. This makes the "jurk" bigger on gear change as power releases and comes back. You can argue that DSG is too smooth for that league of sports car and gear changes lack the feel associated with a bit more lag. But honestly I think that Ferrari would have that gear change faster if they could. Must be a torque thing, note that DSG is not an option for W12 and V10 TDI VAG engines ... you get a "tiptronic" auto box instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie_d Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Ferrari and Porsche will be beavearing away at a DSG style box, infact Porsche even admitted that they were doing so. Well, they didn't say so, but when asked they said the GT3 wouldn't have a dual clutch box, but it's a very good idea and no, of course we're not looking into, you shouldn't expect to see one in a Porsche anytime soon, course not *nudge nudge wink wink* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemod Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Ferrari are probably continuing to use a single clutch system in their road cars as dual clutches are banned in F1 and this seems to be where a lot of the road cars technology comes from. As far as the DSG is concerned, the Bugatti Veyron has 987 bhp and 922 lb.-ft. of torque and runs with a 7 speed DSG, so looks like the technology can handle it. Mind you the gearbox and engine weigh 650Kg which is about the same as my wifes Lupo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woppum Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 The DSG system is far quicker than the Ferraris single clutch version but I still think that Ferrari probably wont be quick to change to that set up. With the Ferrari boxes now although you are simply clicking a paddle, you can feel it working it still feels mechanical and therefore gives a high level of feedback to the driver. The DSG although very very good, feels almost electric or 'computergamey' and im not sure if Ferrari customers would want that. However I have read that Merc, BMW, Porsche etc are all working on their own version of the dual clutch system so we shall see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Amazing how "The People's Car" (Volks Wagen) has always been a leader . [/ QUOTE ] In general (not talking DSG here) They actually just shout louder. If your into Engineering, Engines and motoring, You will find with a bit of research that the FIAT group are responsable for a hell of a lot of new tecnology they simply patent it, then just quietly licence it out to other firms. Were VW normally have to pair up with other companys to bring new tecnology out and then shout loud they developed it and it automatically becomes a VW design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 [ QUOTE ] The DSG although very very good, feels almost electric or 'computergamey' and im not sure if Ferrari customers would want that. [/ QUOTE ] ....As you can see from the pic below, I use a Logitech ForceFeedback wheel designed by Momo cos I test some motorsport games for the Mac. I can assure you that the GTI's paddles don't feel 'computergamey' at all imo but I know that many peeps have this criticism. It's the fact that it's so very fast that it perhaps seems 'unreal' by comparison. And, yes, TSN is open on my screen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petsy Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 can't see any signs of a milltek exhaust in that pic Red... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 ....Ah, well just to the left and out of picture is a photo of my beloved car which shows the Millteks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGK512 Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Just for a bit of info....Ricardo (who make the F1 'boxes) designed and made the 'box for the Veryon. It is a dual clutch system design ..... but to say it is an 'uprated' version of the GTi 'box with a bit of modding is stretching a bit PS Get my DSG tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Once you've got your DSG R32 tomorrow you won't think it's stretching it all of course! I just know you are sooo going to hate driving that new .:R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidicks Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 I thought I'd read somewhere that Porsche were heavily involved in the design of the original DSG gearbox for Audi/VW, and that they are definitely planning this for later versions of the 911 in the next year or so ? Sidicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Nope, deffo originally for Audi Quattro quite a few years ago. Designed for VAG by Borg&Warner (??). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGK512 Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 How does that song go .... Here comes the sun d dee d dee ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 SilverArrow > That is weird!! I was looking at George Harrison's Best Of CD in the library today, specifically to burn "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" but also specifically noticed that "Here Comes The Sun" track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGK512 Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 so the next track will be the spooky .... doooo doo doooo doo So as not to take this thread too far off track ... maybe swap a burn for a burn at a meet sometime Blimey there is a lot of double meaning in that last statement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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