RedRobin Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 There have been a few issues reported after re-mapping Milltek-equipped DSG Mk5 R32s and GTIs although the majority have been successful. The GTI has been out longer and so the tuners have had more opportunity to address any issues. It seems that problems arise from the consequences of re-mapping and are not directly caused by the exhaust system. Without any re-mapping the bhp gains are minimal when a Milltek exhaust is fitted - Minimal for both the normally aspirated R32 and the turbocharged GTI. Apart from an improved exhaust note which acts as a driving aid in modern over sound-proofed cars, throttle response will be noticeably improved. Without re-mapping, a Milltek improves driveability and that is surely rather more important than chasing bhp numbers. In the case of the GTI being turbocharged, the addition of a Milltek Hi-flow with downpipe greatly improves the turbo spooling and when you go a stage further and also re-map, the power and torque is more dramatically increased. However, the exhaust can then potentially expose the shortcomings of a particular re-map (if any exist) and this applies whether a car is turbo'd or not. This occurs essentially because the efficiency of the exhaust system can push performance beyond the parameters of the re-map. I know of no instances of a problem on Milltek equipped standard non re-mapped cars, whether DSG or not. Consequently, the onus is on the tuner to re-map according to the car's hardware - Specifically the exhaust system and DSG. It will doubtless be controversial if I suggest that DSG cars are driven harder than manual versions but what I mean by that is that when you drive a DSG in S-mode the driver is possibly more encouraged to kiss the red zone more regularly. Yes, the car is designed for S-mode but VW haven't designed their cars to accommodate a re-map which alters their programmed ECU actions. I'm not suggesting that it is unwise to re-map but only that it is wise to choose your tuner extremely carefully and particularly if you have a DSG car with a Milltek performance exhaust system and especially if it's a Hi-flow with downpipe. I have a close relationship with Milltek but absolutely no financial interest and I can state here that Milltek are a very caring company who will not knowingly leave their customers with problems with their Milltek products. It takes time to develop their products and they are currently aware of an issue on only one DSG Milltek'd Mk5 re-mapped R32 and are doing all they can to help solve any known problems but the principal onus is surely on the tuners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rs32 Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 RR - is there any further technical info available from Milltek as to why there could be a problem with remapped DSG cars ? e.g. throttle-blips during downshift ? R32 owners will be particularly interested in these "issues" as the remapping scene is way behind that of the GTI as you say. For the owners of DSG/Milltek'd/Remapped cars (GTI & R32) - were you offered a DSG-specific remap or was there no mention of DSG being an issue ? Please post the info here as it may prove very useful in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted July 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 Hi Richard > I don't currently have any info other than what I have posted: "....the exhaust can then potentially expose the shortcomings of a particular re-map (if any exist) and this applies whether a car is turbo'd or not. This occurs essentially because the efficiency of the exhaust system can push performance beyond the parameters of the re-map." Throttle-blips would push up the revs and potentially, I think, bring the re-map features into play. Can I suggest you meet me tomorrow and I'll introduce you to Milltek so you can ask more detailed questions directly. To answer your last question: Some, but not all, tuners I have spoken to have very definitely said that a re-map must accommodate DSG because of torque levels/limitations. Personally, I would steer clear of any tuner who doesn't differentiate DSG but I expect someone will tell me I'm talking rubbish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insurance Jon Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 I second the care and attention to detailed afforded my Miltek. I've had them on most of my cars, and will continue to fit them.....but remap your car after the exhaust...not before it's essential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_G Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 I had a long chat with an Audi technician today whilst he was checking my coolant system for trapped air. He was very anti remapped 1.8 and 2.0T cars, simply because if they are not overfueled and destroy rings then they wear out / melt the turbos far quicker. His suggestion was always to lighten the car and change the exhaust for better driveability. Having worked for BMW, Lexus and Lotus previously I'm inclined to believe some of what he says. If you were to remp, the opinion was to uprate the turbo as well in the mid to long term before you screw up the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_G Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 Oh, and they can always detect a remap nowadays so don't believe this 'undetectable' nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petsy Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 hmm, isn't this why apr and revo now have stage 2 software? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_G Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 Stage 2? Please explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKLooney Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 [ QUOTE ] There have been a few issues reported after re-mapping Milltek-equipped DSG Mk5 R32s and GTIs [/ QUOTE ] You speak of issues... What are these issues? (poor performance? excessive clutch wear? exploding engine?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKLooney Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Stage 2? Please explain. [/ QUOTE ] Stage 1 = Standard remap Stage 2 = Milltek exhaust and Milltek remap (slightly more tweaked parameters) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted July 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] There have been a few issues reported after re-mapping Milltek-equipped DSG Mk5 R32s and GTIs [/ QUOTE ] You speak of issues... What are these issues? (poor performance? excessive clutch wear? exploding engine?) [/ QUOTE ] ....Instances of misfiring, excessive wheelspin, for example, but in fact very few. You would have to ask tuners for more specific info and hope they would tell you. Issues have diminished as time has allowed the tuners to fine-tune their products. The particular issue that has prompted this whole thread is still under investigation and discussion by those involved and it would not be fair (or appropriate to TSN imo) to discuss this publicly at this stage. As always, info will emerge in due course. It's anyone's guess what issues may arise in the long term if at all but the more the tuners push the envelope, the more risks there are. See couple of posts above by P_G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted July 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Stage 2? Please explain. [/ QUOTE ] Stage 1 = Standard remap Stage 2 = Milltek exhaust and Milltek remap (slightly more tweaked parameters) [/ QUOTE ] ....Milltek don't do re-maps. I say this just to clarify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_G Posted July 29, 2006 Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Stage 2? Please explain. [/ QUOTE ] Stage 1 = Standard remap Stage 2 = Milltek exhaust and Milltek remap (slightly more tweaked parameters) [/ QUOTE ] ....Milltek don't do re-maps. I say this just to clarify. [/ QUOTE ] I was about to say, first I knew of it too. You can have it in a dongle box I suppose but even those can be detected apparently as the newer ECU's now store dates and times when it has been accessed. Also it it is remapped the remap has a creation date and if it is not the same as that registered with your cars manufacturer then they will also be able to tell. That would take a bit if investigating but is plausible. Or so I am told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHA Posted July 29, 2006 Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 There have been rumours circulating about the longevity of the clutches in the DSG 'boxes. When Audi released the TT V6 with DSG they said the clutches carried a lifetime warranty. However if this was a claim that will cost them in the long run will take some time to see. Remaps do put more pressure on transmissions as well as the engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted July 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Remaps do put more pressure on transmissions as well as the engines. [/ QUOTE ] ....The more the envelope gets pushed by a re-map, the more potential stresses are put on all sorts of components. This doesn't matter on a full-race track car or if you do mods to compensate. The rough yardstick for VW is about +40% headroom I'm told by those who should know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHA Posted July 30, 2006 Report Share Posted July 30, 2006 Well for example my old S3 was chipped. At 40,000miles the clutch was 80% worn and was showing signs that it would be best to get it replaced. So I did. It would have lasted until 50K which is shorter than the lifespan you would expect from such a car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted July 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2006 Re clutches, the current generation of DSG boxes are stuffed full with safeguards and I'm prepared to believe that the DSG system, providing that it's not overstressed by the particular re-map, will last well. Says he who had a Mechatronics Module (part of DSG) fail at about 6K miles while accelerating hard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danksy Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 Its not necessarily the bhp that strains the box, rather the way the torque is delivered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted July 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 - That's why tuners must take DSG into account and cater for the torque. Most good tuners are aware of this and do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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