Lee_ Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 [ QUOTE ] A poorly engineered car!!!??? I've heard the Veyron called a lot of things, but I'd have thought "poorly engineered" could hardly be one of them. It's engineered up the ying yang! I can't think of a more engineered car..! [/ QUOTE ] Its definitely a success as far as engineering goes but when you factor in an unlimited budget and the time scale that it took, its not really a great achievement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarMad Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 The Best car in the world... Erm under whos rules. You could argue a Prius is the best car in the world. Its certainly far cleverer and better engineered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s4_sat Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 By the best car, i mean the plan drawn up by Dr Piech. The car encapsulates everything that he thought the perfect car should be. The fastest, most expensive, most luxurious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssFour Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 [ QUOTE ] The Veyron is an engineer's supercar.[ QUOTE ] As an engineer I totally agree. [ QUOTE ] its a masterpiece of modern engineering [/ QUOTE ] True indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s4_sat Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The Veyron is an engineer's supercar.[ QUOTE ] As an engineer I totally agree. [ QUOTE ] its a masterpiece of modern engineering [/ QUOTE ] True indeed. [/ QUOTE ] The car is a masterpiece of technological prowess. Every bit of the car is beautiful. the engine bay, the lights, the interior, the dials, the gearknob(never thought i'd say that a knob is beautiful!), the attention to detail and finishing is mindblowing. the cost of the parts doesn't bear thinking about. the engine alone would cost as much as a high spec golf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarMad Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 He also created the Phaeton as the ultimate luxury car. He also was going to create one of the fuel efficient cars as the ultimate car. The Veryon might be the ultimate performance car if you want just luxury and no soul.. mind you that is VW products for you. But all of the above have generally been over cost, and arguably a flop. Thats not a clever way to run a company. A wet dream perhaps, but I bet there are a fair few VW / Audi employees who are out of a job as a result. Yes Very clever I agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torino101 Posted August 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 If you veiw it as purely a business proposition, then yes of course it has been a finacial flop. But as a piece of engineering that has stretched and pushed forwards the boundries of human acheivement then this has to be considered a bit of a marvel. Someone stated that there have been faster cars in ther past - possibly. But none of them have ever got close to the Veyrons ability to marry refinement, class, everyday usibility and practicality with dragster pace and sportscar handling. If you had to show off the automobile to an alien race this is the car you would choose. VW deserve to be proud of that - the world would be all the more boring without some companies pushing the boundries no matter what the cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssFour Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 [ QUOTE ] He also created the Phaeton as the ultimate luxury car. He also was going to create one of the fuel efficient cars as the ultimate car. The Veryon might be the ultimate performance car if you want just luxury and no soul.. mind you that is VW products for you. But all of the above have generally been over cost, and arguably a flop. Thats not a clever way to run a company. A wet dream perhaps, but I bet there are a fair few VW / Audi employees who are out of a job as a result. Yes Very clever I agree with you. [/ QUOTE ] Employees who have lost their jobs was not a result of the Veyron running over budget, trust me most engineering projects run over budget (I'm in aerospace and its the norm). Its a fact accountants cannot fathom. Anyway back too VW employees jobs here in Germany. The fact they are paid very highly, assembly line workers that is, and are not very efficient, plus the unions here are very strong is the reason why VW is in a bit of a crisis at the moment and not the Veyron. The Veyron is more luxurious than any of its competitors past and present, more userfriendly than any P+P, more expensive (a requirement of supercar status) P+P, out performs its competitors P+P. It is in a different league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s4_sat Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 The Phaeton was built to challenge Mercedes' dominance in the luxury market. not to be the best but to compete with the best. The Phaeton is not regarded as good enough to beat Mercedes, BMW, Audi etc but it is a showcase to what the company can do. The Tourag was built to do this as well. This has done well compared to the Phaeton but anything could have done better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilB Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 Wasn't one of the design parameters of the Phaeton that air con should be able to stay at 21°c when it's 48°C outside, while the engine is going at 180mph. It's anal things like that that turn me off German cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarMad Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 And that he didn't like a draft so it has no direct ventilation after the initial cooling period. VW is in a mess and the cost of the cars shows it. The Golf is being replaced early because its too expensive. Engineering at any cost is NOT clever engineering, its just not the real world. I'm an engineer and have helped people improve there, planes, cars and race cars so I do understand this. I really don't see how the veyron has moved things on so much. If it was £100k and offered the same luxury and performance I'd say it was clever. But its not and it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s4_sat Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 If the Phaeton had a bentley or Bugatti badge then it would have been recieved better. The VW badge is and will always be a victim of badge snobbery. The Skoda superb suffers from this too. It is a good car in its own right but the badge puts people off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssFour Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Engineering at any cost is NOT clever engineering, its just not the real world. I'm an engineer and have helped people improve there, planes, cars and race cars so I do understand this. [/ QUOTE ] You are quite right engineering at any cost is not clever. But it happens and as an enginner I thought you would appreciate that. If the engineering requirements are higher then the costs will go up, its is a FACT. The A380 has ran over budget, the manufacturing problems has shed € of EADS share value. Why? Because the a/c engineering requirements are higher than anything before. In my previous role a component kpt failling test. Why? Because the requirements were so high. The solution resulted in the costs going up. Like I said before VW problems has more to do with resource costs and inefficiency than engineering a supercar. Hence overpriced VW models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimdiesel Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 Carmad, by your standards Concorde was poorly engineered. When you are pushing boundries, budgets and timescales have to go out of the window. The Veryron is a towering achievement from an engineering point of view. Its cost is also a drop in the ocean in VAG terms, and far less than the mooted F1 project. With a far greater publicity return to boot. The bottom line is that there are quite afew companies who could have designed and built a Mclaren F1 equivalent. I cannot think of any other that would have succeeded like VW have with the Veryron. Lets remember the guy who dreamed it up, also dreamed up the Porsche 917 (including the awesome Can Am versions), and in the process almost bankrupt the company. Nearly all the cash that Porsche had amassed from the rights to the Beatle were spent on the 917. However the end result ment that Porsche went from being a little german company who made funny little sports cars, and who won the occasional race, to being the force we know today, with all its heratige. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon magnifique Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 I can understand people not "getting" the Veyron - the whole point of the evo article was to try to decide whether it was a car that's all about the numbers, or a great supercar that happens to do the numbers. Have to admit, the article has seen it move up quite alot in my own desirability list. Obviously, evo's comparison with the 'accepted' supercars was entirely relevant, and made a great article especially given that the other three were owned by people taking part, but I think they missed the car that is its closest rival - the McLaren SLR. The SLR and the Bug are the first two examples of an entirely new breed of supercar for people who want more than a balls out road racer (though arguably the Pagani has that side of the market at least partly covered too). Yep, the more I think about it, the more I want a Veyron. Damn. That's an extra 700k I'm gonna have to save up for my dream car... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamD Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 I sadly haven't read it yet, as once again they have screwed up the subscribers editions and they are late. This is getting silly, it has been a week late for the last 3 months! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woppum Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 I think the article was pretty much what I expected. We all know its quick and 4wd will always be better on the road. But its boring and brash and still stand by my guns that the most impressive thing about this car is its price. Ive seen 100k Skylines go quicker and I bet as fast as it is on the road, I bet a porka turbo or mitsi evo will be faster than the lot in most situations. A car with 1000bhp is made for the track, you cant exploit that on the road no more than you can an Enzo or Pagani but with those cars its the looks and noise which is impressive, sadly all Bugatti has done is created another way for men to flash their cash. A great achievement, but I would feel very very small driving such a vulgar opulant devise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon magnifique Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 [ QUOTE ] I sadly haven't read it yet, as once again they have screwed up the subscribers editions and they are late. This is getting silly, it has been a week late for the last 3 months! [/ QUOTE ] Got mine through the post late last week! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimdiesel Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 My last 2 copies have been early if anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamD Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 must just be mine then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonb Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 October 2006 issue?? It's not even September yet!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarMad Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Carmad, by your standards Concorde was poorly engineered. When you are pushing boundries, budgets and timescales have to go out of the window. The Veryron is a towering achievement from an engineering point of view. Its cost is also a drop in the ocean in VAG terms, and far less than the mooted F1 project. With a far greater publicity return to boot. The bottom line is that there are quite afew companies who could have designed and built a Mclaren F1 equivalent. I cannot think of any other that would have succeeded like VW have with the Veryron. Lets remember the guy who dreamed it up, also dreamed up the Porsche 917 (including the awesome Can Am versions), and in the process almost bankrupt the company. Nearly all the cash that Porsche had amassed from the rights to the Beatle were spent on the 917. However the end result ment that Porsche went from being a little german company who made funny little sports cars, and who won the occasional race, to being the force we know today, with all its heratige. [/ QUOTE ] Sorry I can't disagree more. To compare concorde against another plane to a Veyron to a Mclaren F1 as similar is just bonkers. When you are pushing the boundries of engineering then things can and do cost huge amounts extra to do. But am I missing something here. The Veyron has done very little different than any other super car ever created before, its gone a little faster so what. Slap a turbo onto another hyper car and I'm sure it could match a Veryon, but thats hardly clever is it ?!?!?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie_d Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 [ QUOTE ] When you are pushing the boundries of engineering then things can and do cost huge amounts extra to do. But am I missing something here. The Veyron has done very little different than any other super car ever created before, its gone a little faster so what. Slap a turbo onto another hyper car and I'm sure it could match a Veryon, but thats hardly clever is it ?!?!?. [/ QUOTE ] Surely the whole point behind the Veyron is the speed with the luxury and reliability? What other car can you cross Europe in at a VERY fast pace, yet with the safety net of a full warranty behind you? Another point is that other car makers COULD have done it, but they' DIDN'T... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssFour Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 [ QUOTE ] The Veyron has done very little different than any other super car ever created before [/ QUOTE ] Other than the SLR I struggle to name any other 2 tonne , luxury, driveable, well handling, safe supercar capable of 250mph. At that speed planes take off...! The aerodynamics required to allow a car to travel that fast and stable is pretty impressive. All other supercars before it have been light (pagani, f1, f40) with a powerful engine with little or no creature comforts. People could argue where is the difficulty in that. Lets not forget it has dealt with all of its other competitors past and present. So there is no queston about its all round performance. Remember they compared the way it left the pagani behind to a 350Z vs a 911 turbo. Also in the twisty bits the Enzo was at its ragged edge trying to keep up...! That says it all. Remember we are talking about a 2 tonne . That's a hell of inertia. People alos mona about its price. Lets remember that the F1 cost over 600K back in 1994...! Then people where saying it was stupid money. How much would one cost in today's money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimdiesel Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Carmad, by your standards Concorde was poorly engineered. When you are pushing boundries, budgets and timescales have to go out of the window. The Veryron is a towering achievement from an engineering point of view. Its cost is also a drop in the ocean in VAG terms, and far less than the mooted F1 project. With a far greater publicity return to boot. The bottom line is that there are quite afew companies who could have designed and built a Mclaren F1 equivalent. I cannot think of any other that would have succeeded like VW have with the Veryron. Lets remember the guy who dreamed it up, also dreamed up the Porsche 917 (including the awesome Can Am versions), and in the process almost bankrupt the company. Nearly all the cash that Porsche had amassed from the rights to the Beatle were spent on the 917. However the end result ment that Porsche went from being a little german company who made funny little sports cars, and who won the occasional race, to being the force we know today, with all its heratige. [/ QUOTE ] Sorry I can't disagree more. To compare concorde against another plane to a Veyron to a Mclaren F1 as similar is just bonkers. When you are pushing the boundries of engineering then things can and do cost huge amounts extra to do. But am I missing something here. The Veyron has done very little different than any other super car ever created before, its gone a little faster so what. Slap a turbo onto another hyper car and I'm sure it could match a Veryon, but thats hardly clever is it ?!?!?. [/ QUOTE ] The thing about the Veyron, that most people seem to forget, is the fact that VW have designed and built the Veryron in line with VW's longevity and climactic standards. So their are 1000hp Skylines and Supras out there. But they need a rebuild every few thousand miles,and wouldnt take kindly to running in typical middle east climates (which alot of Veyrons will find themselves running in). The same applies to slapping a turbo on to an F1 or a Zonda. When I made the reference to Concorde, I was using it as an example. The design parameters of the Veyron are in engineering terms a huge step into the unknown. Even more so than Concordes. At least Concordes designers had alot of data regarding supersonic flight. VW could have built a lightweight, just as fast, alternative to the Veyron. But its appeal (and ability to catch peoples imaginations) would have been no where near as dramatic. They chose not to, and should be reviered for this, not cynicaly critisised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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