spencerbruntlett Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 I think I know the answer to this but is anyone else starting to experiance slower starting in the mornings now? It used to fire after about 3 turns but now its taking considerably more time. Checked & topped up battery levels and even put on charge last night but was no better this morning. It is just the first start, after that it is fine for the rest of the day. It always starts but I dont want to get to the point where it fails, any tips/suggestions? PS: Checked charging system and that is working fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muppet_man Posted November 8, 2006 Report Share Posted November 8, 2006 When it has started does it idle OK or is it a bit uneven and lumpy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spencerbruntlett Posted November 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2006 Once started it runs as smooth as a sowing machine, had new plugs in about 3k miles ago. A test at 'bristol batteries' said that whilst the battery power was low it was functioning fine and that they suspected the charge system as it was putting out about 13.7 volts. Next stop was the auto electician who said that whilst the charging system was on the low side (their test said 13.9 volts) it was still within tolerance and they would need it for 24 hours and have to run a whole load of tests to prove conclusively. They suspected the battery was the original and so at 9 years old would be due a change. Another auto electician suggested that it would not be the battery at all, 'if it turns over then its got enough power to start' they claimed, and suggested that it was more likely to be an ignition problem. So now I am really confussed, do I: a.) change battery b.) get all charging system checked out c.) get the ignition checked out d.) something else e.) live with it until something fails/resolves itself answers on a postcard please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikw Posted November 8, 2006 Report Share Posted November 8, 2006 Past experience suggests that a new battery can make a big difference to the cranking speed on a cold morning. It's not just a matter of voltage, but how that voltage holds up when a lot of current is demanded from the battery. If the slow cranking is going to carry on bothering you I'd splash out £50 on a new battery - that's less than a single tank of fuel, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spencerbruntlett Posted November 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2006 Yeah not got the equipment to test the kinds of current produced. My plan is to leave it on charge over night (will keep trickling once full) tonight and see if this gets it going better in the morning. In theory if the battery is loosing its kick then this should see the car start within a couple of cranks and prove the battery is dying. If not....well I will update tomorrow. Quote for new battery was £77 which seems fair given the size of the damn thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronmcl Posted November 8, 2006 Report Share Posted November 8, 2006 Tend to agree with NikW - if it's 9 years old then even it's not knackered you will notice a difference switching to a new one. At 9 years old it's going to give up before too long anyway so better to be pro-active about it. Even if the problem does persist you'll have eliminated the battery as a suspect and it'll help you trace the source of the problem. Btw £77 does seem a fair price - does that include VAT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muppet_man Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 Your engineer is quite right in as much as, if the car turns over at the right speed then there is nothing wrong with the battery, even if it's nine years old. The ignition is very tolerent of voltage that isn't exactly right. It will fire correctly at a much lower voltage and with the correct kick long after other components have decided they don't have the right urge. However, if your battery has the start of a dying cell then voltage drop could be great even though it has enough to turn the car over. You can try parking your car faceing the wall, put your headlights on full and your hazards and fogs, then turn the car over. See if this makes it turn noticably slower and also judge if you think the lights dim lots as apposed to when the car is warm. Failing all that, live in the car and that way it will never get cold enough to cause a problem starting. Also just think of the time you'll save not having to go to and fro twix house and car anymore. Result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will22 Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 I'd love to know about cars in the same way as you do Muppet Man, no matter what the problem is you have engineers way of looking at it and not just a fitters way, unlike most garages now days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spencerbruntlett Posted November 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 Great tips, thanks for the help. I agree IF the battery is 9 years old its time for a change, just difficult to tell as there is no date on it? Charging throughout the night it did not start any better this morning, although I did also notice the charger claimed it was still on 'charge' rather than 'trickle', so sounds like the battery isnt holding its charge. And it didnt start any better either. Will try the headlights on test tomorrow morning and then I think I will take the plunge and get a new battery as a first step to investigating. Any chance I could knacker a new battery if it does turn out to be something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronmcl Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Any chance I could knacker a new battery if it does turn out to be something else? [/ QUOTE ] Unlikely from what you've described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser647 Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Quote for new battery was £77 which seems fair given the size of the damn thing [/ QUOTE ] Probably 77 lbs in weight too! I had the same problem, and until I replaced the original 10 yr old battery - what a difference it made! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spencerbruntlett Posted November 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 So I turned all the lights, wipers, heated seats on and the car started the same as it has been doing for a while....needs a lot of turns and then fired up and was fine. So does this rule the battery out? Begining to wonder if the car just needs more effort on a cold morning??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronmcl Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Just a thought Spence, you could try emulating a new battery by linking your battery up to another one via jump leads before you start it from cold. That'll give you plenty of power and if you see a big difference then get a new battery. If however it takes just as long then it'll more likely be ingition, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spencerbruntlett Posted November 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 What a good idea, and a simple test to do, ok will give that a go tomorrow morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyMcC Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 What happens if you give it a lil'thottle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spencerbruntlett Posted November 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 OK tried the jump start idea....no joy A bit of throttle doesnt make any difference either. I have got it booked in for some diagnostic checks by an auto electrician tomorrow...lets hope that yeilds some more results Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pied Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 have the same problem I think. when under 15°C it needs 2,3 or more starts before running when above 16°C it starts after 3 turns when started it' running fine replaced: Sparkplugs+kables, temperature sensor, engine breather hose no effect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyMcC Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 Welcome to TSN Pied! Have you had the battery tested? Mine normally started in a split second, right up until the batt failure. When I had it tested, the batt had just 85 of the 760amps in it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muppet_man Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 Sorry for the slow answer Spence. If with all light on etc the car was the same then would say it's not battery. All of that extra draw on the batteries reserves should have slowed it down if it was getting knackered anyway. Start looking for things like coolant temp sensor etc which tell the car how to start when the tempreture is cooler. You could try driving to Moscow for the evening as it's really cold there. If it's REALLY hard to start then at about minus 20 then we'll know it definately has a problem. You'll also find out how effective your heated seats are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo_a6 Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 Moscow -20C thats warm in January 06 Moscow got as low as -37C and Yekutiah in Siberia -71C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spencerbruntlett Posted November 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 OK, so the diagnostics are back in, lets hope you guys can help fill in the details.... 17547 - Bank 2 - Fuel Trim Rich 16885 - Vehicle Speed Signal 16684 - Missfire 16692 - Cyl 8 Missfire 16691 - Cyl 7 17545 - Bank 1 - Fuel Trim Rich Guys who did the diagnosis said they would check plugs first, then coils. Is it possible the S8 could eat a set of plugs in 6k miles? They were NOT the platinum ones, but I would still expect more from them than that. And which cylinder is 7 and 8??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pied Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 I Test started it with the battery from my wifes car in parallel and it didn't get better (in fact te battery isn't a year old, should be in good shape) Are there anny valves that should be (and get stuck like with the Golf GTI's I had) open while coldstarting ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spencerbruntlett Posted November 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 Just got full code descriptions from the web as follows: 17547 - Long Term Fuel Trim Add.Fuel,Bank2 System too Rich 16885 - Vehicle Speed Sensor Range/Performance 16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected 16692 - Cyl.8 Misfire Detected 16691 - Cyl.7 Misfire Detected 17545 - Long Term Fuel Trim Add.Fuel,Bank1 System too Rich Could bad plugs cause the long term fuel issue too? Guess if it wasnt firing correctly it would be to rich, but depends when this is measured? Volume of fuel entering cylinder or test on gas emissions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbolian Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 Well if it's any help, the misfires in mine where caused by a bad plug in cyl8. It then left the engine and took the coil pack with it. Replaced the plugs and pack and all has been well since. My speed sensor is also faulty which I belive is what is stopping my cruise from working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spencerbruntlett Posted November 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 That is useful, an you remember what plugs you used??? To help you the speed sensor is almost certainly the cause of your cruise problems, mine got better on its own but the code persists. Does anyone know how long the codes will remain on the system....just in case the misfire codes are from when I replaced the plugs about 4 months ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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