Forge's Intercooler Kit...

[RedRobin]

Thanks to Chungster for bringing this to our attention in another thread.

Interesting and very effective mod. BUT...Personally I wonder what heavy rainwater flooding on our roads (much of this recently) would do to it. And I really don't like the silver appearance behind the honeycombe grill.

Forge Intercooler info

[Mollox]

Nothing I suspect

My S3 intercoolers are behind my front foglights, my old Golf had its (single) intercooler in the same sort of position. Doesn't the 2.0T motor have them set low down?

[Chungster]

You can have it in discreet black if you wanted

[RedRobin]

As usual, I think you're right Mollox .

Which just leaves the silver effect which I don't like.

I'm not thinking of doing it but also having this Forge intercooler mod would be creating quite an animal if added to my setup.

[RedRobin]

Hmmm....I wonder if this would be a better mod than a re-map? I'm doubtless showing my ignorance/limited knowledge here.

[Mollox]

There genuinely is no better mod than just a remap

I am probably wrong, but don't you need a remap to push the bigger intercooler to work to its potential? Otherwise, isn't the intercooler just cooling the charge air temperarture? That in itself is good but I'm sure the remap will do a lot more

[DHA]

IMO extra intercoolers are only needed for large turbo applications. And higher power outputs. The EVOs have them to get the vast amounts of power they produce but I doubt it really is needed in a GTI. I suspect (and agree with mollox, and having owned a chipped car in the past) that a chip will provide 90% of the performance of a car with all the mods possible taking it to 280bhp ish.

[RedRobin]

....Cheers, guys Good to know.

Hence this kind of appearance:

[bowie]

Big turbos don't necessarily need bigger i/cs. Its basic physics. Smaller turbos running high boost work at the top end of their efficiency. The act of compressing air itself generates heat, combined with the rising temperature of the (working harder) engine, all serves to send intake temps thru the roof. Hence the need for a bigger, more efficient i/c.

Bigger turbos don't need to run such high boost because they move a larger quantity of air and as you know to get more power from an engine you need to get as much (cold) air in as possible. Therefore they do not run at the higher end of their efficiency. Of course, with the bigger turbo you will get itchy feet and want more, so want to get more out of it by running it at higher boost. Viscous circle.

Chris.

[RedRobin]

....Then it seems to me that "achieving a huge reduction in inlet temperatures" (as Forge put it) even on a car with OEM size turbo, is going to be a good thing to do. Cold air is always a good thing, is it not? Especially as the 2.0T FSI engine is a hot running engine.

[Mollox]

All turbos are hot running engines!

I've told you this before Mine runs a hell of a lot hotter than yours too As bowie says, heat and heatsoak is the issue and if you don't create the heat in the first place (overdoing the boost) then you're halfway to solving the problem. There's lots of power to be gained from timing advances also and modern remaps take advantage of this

[RedRobin]

....Then it's a re-map and not the intercooler kit as the better mod - I've eventually got the message and understood why.

[RRR250]

The question is when do you stop and when dose the DSG box go bang!?

[RedRobin]

I've been speaking to several independent tuners/suppliers today whose opinions I have come to respect and....

I'm told that a good intercooler will compliment a remap by reducing temperatures and increasing flow efficiency, but importantly it will help the life of the turbo. In other words, as well as subtly enhancing performance, it will offset some of the potential 'stresses' a high power remap might be adding to an engine.

To try to answer RRR's question about stopping before the DSG box goes bang: I think that it's important not to exceed a certain level of torque. It seems that VW build-in a 'headroom' margin of about +40% to OEM - Which gives a fair amount of scope for modding.

[RedRobin]

Another long chat now causes me to question how good Forge's intercooler is! There are some tight bends in the piping and the Mk5 GTI's OEM intercooler is relatively massive and very efficient (unlike the Mk4 apparently). I would want to wait and see what independent reviewers and testers have to say about the Forge Twintercooler.

Also, a Revo Stage 1 remap, even with my Hi-flow+downpipe exhaust would only give about 240 bhp which is very manageable and stress-free.

I expect that some TSNers think I'm being over cautious about a remap but I am currently loving this car and intending to keep it and want to reduce the potential for problems in the longer term.

[bowie]

Red, wouldn't have thought an uprated i/c would make a great deal of difference to turbo life. After all , it plays its part post turbo. If you are going to have a custom map then I would have the i/c first so that it can be taken advantage of. Ask around though. See if anyone can give you reviews of their (personal) experiences. Any advantage or benifits ? Not tuners with their hidden aggendas though.

Chris.

[RedRobin]

I'll post a general quezzie in the Tuning forum.

[Chungster]

What some of us have been concerned with was pressure drop as having a 2nd intercooler means extra space for the turbo to charge up so it needs to run harder to maintain same level of boost getting to the manifold compared to having single IC.

However a friend running one with Revo Stage 2 map is seeing very good gains with it.

Forge IC's are very good and efficient so I don't doubt the product one bit. But the standard IC should be adequate for Stage 1 remaps at least.

It would be however show its benefits when running more boost on stage 2 maps etc. The ECU won't need to back off as much if intake temps are kept low etc.

[RedRobin]

That makes a lot of sense. I've had Revo at the top of my list for a while and although I'm impressed by Abt, the Revo offers me a Stage 1 of approx 240 bhp / 295 ft.lbs which still leaves good 'headroom' (plus it has an anti-theft option and is user switchable).

I could always easily upgrade to a Revo Stage 2 remap if I wanted to later, and consider the IC at that time.

The question is whether a Forge IC would have any worthwhile benefits for a Stage 1 even though the OEM IC is adequate. I'm a bit out of my depth here!

[bowie]

I'd have to say if your planning to keep the car a while (and judging by the way you've spent....yes) and the intention is 270 up then get the i/c and have AMD or Jabba to do you a custom map. This way you get to take advantage of the reduced temps.

As far as pressure drop, sorry I wasn't aware that a FMIC was in addition to not inatead of.

How do Revo do theirs then ? The stage 1 a generic ? Stage 2 custom ? Is their custom real time or done via e-mail ?

Chris.

[Mollox]

Robin,

You know I can't resist the odd comment Beware of intercooler advice from anyone that sells intercoolers

Its also not necessarily true that a lower bhp/torque output makes for a gentler and less 'stressful' map (implied longevity). Its impossible to predict these things but I'd look at max boost and how torque is delivered. There were a number of different maps for the S3, many were very linear but one was notable for a significantly higher peak boost and a very skewed slug of torque early on. My point is that they all delivered roughly the same numbers but perhaps the map with the big wad of initial torque might logically cause more wear

40% headroom...wouldn't necessarily argue with that other than to say its not a cut and shut case and its more likely to be linear - i.e. you're still quite possibly increasing wear and reducing lifespan the further you go into that 40% headroom. I really wouldn't worry about it too much though

[petsy]

for a stage 2 remap you should have modified intake and exhaust...

[RedRobin]

[ QUOTE ]

How do Revo do theirs then ? The stage 1 a generic ? Stage 2 custom ? Is their custom real time or done via e-mail ?

Chris.

[/ QUOTE ]

....Generic with a twist - The Plus versions allow the user to change settings. The big attraction with the Revo is its flexibility - You can start with a Stage 1 and later switch to a Stage 2 and you can also switch it yourself to standard before visiting the dealer - Not to hide it (my VW dealer is happy about a remap) but to restrict the performance when some muppet takes it out for a test. Around 240 bhp is ideal imo.

Not done by email and rolling road offered depending if the Revo agent has one, though to some extent the numbers shouldn't be too heavily relied on imo. For an 'after' plot, I would want to rr it a couple of weeks later after the ECU has settled.

I'm definitely planning to keep the car....I'm still grinning!

Thanks for all your advice, Chris It's appreciated.

[bowie]

I've never quite got the "dealer techs driving my car" thing. Even mapped I would have thought most VW /Audi techs drive stuff a lot quicker. My brother runs the workshop at the local Audi dealer and drives a lot quicker cars than mine. Each to their own though. Its your money and all that. Mine is an AMD map and TBH never really thought about having it switchable. Can imagine some dealers being awkward though, but I would imagine most just want to get the work out the door !

Chris.

[RedRobin]

I agree that the dealer techs aren't necessarily a big problem but it's just that you hear stories. Frankly, I don't like anyone driving my car unless i know what kind of driver they are. Which means that I do trust some TSNers I have met and driven with.

Apart from flexible remapping, I rate Revo's Anti-theft feature very highly.