Is this morally wrong and would you do it?

[NewNiceMrMe]

For the last 2.5 years I've being walking out of the office at pretty much the same times each day to go for a cigarette. At least 2-3 times a week I end up standing and chatting to a bloke in his late 40's.

Nice fella, really pleasant, salt of the earth, very personable. In the time we've known each other we've both picked up snippets of information about things and chatted about holidays, work, life and you know the way things go, pretty much everything and anything to pass 5 minutes.

If I didn't know what this guy did, I'd have said he was a used car dealer. But a very likeable one. Within minutes he's the type that has known you years.

He never buys a DVD, he always has them within minutes on them being at the cinema. The first thing he does with his iPhone - is jailbreak it and get an app installed that lets him download anything for nothing. As I said, he's a real character albeit a bit of a dodgy one.

Anyway....

The used car salesman stereotype turned out to be true. After about 6 months of chatting to him I became aware of the fact he dabbled in a bit of private trading. He buys cheap cars (his motto is 'buy for less than two grand, always put 500 in my hand') and seeks to make at least five hundred quid off them in less than a week. He says if he has them more than 7 days it has been a bad deal. He does nothing to them other than give them a good clean up via a 'mate' of his who 'does a bit of valeting, ya nah!'.

Anyway....

He's bought and sold everything under 2k. Picasso's, Megane Scenics, loads and loads of all kinds of stuff but he seems to have a particular liking for old and cheap people carriers. He says they shift quickly. Not in the performance sense, but in the commercial one.

Yesterday he told me of his latest acquisition - and sale.

He got a call from a friend of a friend who knew a lady whose husband had passed away a few weeks back. He had a Citroen Picasso which they used to use, occasionally, for taking their grandchildren on days out. I was already welling up.

She wanted to sell the car and his mate described it as a 'minter'.

So, he went round. He said it was 'like chuffing new' but he thought it was too much for him so he said, genuinely, 'it's gonna be too much for me'. At this point he says she said 'I just want it gone, it is hard to see everyday, how much could you give me for it because my son doesn't think it is worth much anyway'.

At this point he said, and I quote, he thought 'wayhey, me lucks in'. As I said, he's a character.

He knew the car would sell for £4k, easily.

So he said he tried his luck and told her he could go 'top whack' and give her 2k for it.

She accepted. No hesitation.

He said he couldn't believe his luck and he quickly trotted off to the bank and brought the money to her and drove it off an hour later, just after lunchtime.

Then....

He rang a few people who knew a few people. By 9pm last night he'd sold it on - for £4,800.

Now, morally, could you have done it and was he right to do it.

See, I like this guy, but I don't like him as much as I did. I can't look at him now without thinking 'fecker, what a dirty trick to pull'. Or, did he just do what anyone would have?

[Thorburn]

She wanted rid of it and accepted his offer, I wouldn't feel too bad personally. For her she had the minimum hassle and its gone, one less thing to worry about.

Okay its not the nicest thing to do, but it sounds like both sides of the deal were 'happy'.

It can go both ways, I traded in an MX-5 with a cooked top-end that the trader didn't spot, they'll win some and lose some.

[Milo]

I know who you work next to remember

[NewNiceMrMe]

I know who you work next to remember

He's not from the office next door, but you'll know the company.

I thought about reporting him for tax evasion.

I did actually think about that.

I just don't feel that 'cool' about it.

[Thorburn]

See, I like this guy, but I don't like him as much as I did. I can't look at him now without thinking 'fecker, what a dirty trick to pull'. Or, did he just do what anyone would have?

Reminds me, when I was at uni I bought about 30 sticks of DDR memory for £1 and then sold them at £15 each - less than half their value new just to shift them on.

Okay not from a grieving widow, but I've got no problem buying something that's been vastly under-valued.

Hell when my parents bought the Forester we'd looked at one in a dealership up at £7000 for the same spec, same year and slightly lower mileage.

Was advertised at £4000, when they started talking about price the guy said "I think my wife listed it at £3700? Anyway I don't want anything like that for it really, just make me an offer."

Got it for £3000 with a dog guard and bike carrier thrown in

Oh and I got my dads 528i as part of a bet when I got my degree and sold it back to him at the Parkers book price

Maybe I'm just a dodgy fecker.

[NewNiceMrMe]

Okay not from a grieving widow, but I've got no problem buying something that's been vastly under-valued.

That's the clincher though isn't. That is the main point. Is it not preying on the bereaved?

MrsMe wants me to chin him.

[Thorburn]

That's the clincher though isn't. That is the main point. Is it not preying on the bereaved?

MrsMe wants me to chin him.

I probably would leave it out when telling the story, but I reckon a lot of people would do the same. Would I? Maybe wouldn't know until put in the position. Like I said she agreed to it and is happy it's gone.

The fact he's not declaring the income would annoy me more.

[SINGH]

No way, I couldn't sleep at night. I had the chance to buy an A8 once from a disabled lady who's husband passed. She didn't know anything about it but showed me service history bills, wow he had really looked after it well. She wanted hardly anything for it but I actually quite a bit more more then she wanted, I didn't get a bargain but would say we both got a fair price.

[Tipex]

Can't see the problem, he was upfront with her and said it was worth too much for him, she asked him to make an offer and he did, she didn't have to accept it?

[Muppetboy]

He's ripped her off, plain and simple.

[Mac]

Simple way to estimate most transactions is to reverse it - how would you feel finding out somebody had done the same to you?

Balance has a way of following through

[shark_90]

It's a difficult one, but if it were me trading the car I'd probably go and drop £500 through the door in a brown envelope or something as a goodwill gesture. I'd still be up of course.. maybe I'd split the profit down the middle I dunno.

[Calm Chris]

As someone who works for themselves rates do vary from client A to client B.

If you know they want your service then the pencil tends to be less sharp on price, more so if you are busy and don't really need the work. It's that old supply v demand thing.

Take the Apple kit you have sold recently it might have been given to you as part of the job clearout post new kit. Would that then mean you'd give the units away for no cost ?

So you sell it and are suprised that it sells beyond what you thought it would, well beyond what it cost. Would you then go back to the firm you acquired it from and offer up a fairer share of sale profit ?

Buyer and seller beware rules apply and in todays world there are no morals on profit. If you can you will, if you can't you won't

[cruiser647]

I'd be inclined to do a Shark and give some money back, BUT I'd be happy with doing the deal in the first place.

He even said that is was 'too much for him', but she wanted rid. So fair enough.

However, this is what many shops and other businesses do, so I wouldn't feel bad about it.

[Andrew]

Tipex has a very good point - the chap was actually pretty honest about it all with the lady. Sounds like he was doing her a favour by taking away a hassle.

However, I would definately think about giving her some money back - even if it was £500 extra or so. That would make it alright in my book. Tell him that is what he has to do or you will wreak MrsMe's wishes upon him.

Amazed some think the worst thing is the "tax" evasion though - I'm wondering if I'm the one who needs his head read as I'll be damnned if I'd be writing off to George telling him about my tidy extra profit if I was in the situation.

[Thorburn]

Amazed some think the worst thing is the "tax" evasion though - I'm wondering if I'm the one who needs his head read as I'll be damnned if I'd be writing off to George telling him about my tidy extra profit if I was in the situation.

Why, if he's making £500 every couple of weeks that's an additional £12,000 of income even ignoring the £2800 he just made on this deal.

Depending how much he earns in the first place that would mean a hefty chunk of untaxed income to the detriment to the rest of us, its certainly not pocket change!

Maybe I'm just thinking that because the missus is an accountant specialising in tax.

[Andrew]

Yeah, alright, fair enough. I was looking at it in isolation I suppose. I'm declaring the £10k a year or so my flat earns me in rent, so it amounts to the same thing,

[Calm Chris]

Why, if he's making £500 every couple of weeks that's an additional £12,000 of income even ignoring the £2800 he just made on this deal.

Depending how much he earns in the first place that would mean a hefty chunk of untaxed income to the detriment to the rest of us, its certainly not pocket change!

Maybe I'm just thinking that because the missus is an accountant specialising in tax.

Pretty sure the tax man considers anything under 6 cars a years as a hobby and as such not a tax situation.

A bit like buying houses, moving every 2 years and up scaling of the profits. Some start with £200k and end up in £2m houses- should that be taxed ?

I know the tax man talks to auto trader and the like, they look for common phone numbers and frequent advertisers. They do knock on doors of folk who have a certain (6+ p.a. ?) advert frequency and ask the obvious questions.

By rights anyone using ebay could be classed as a trader, so where does the system start the taxing and when should they simply accept it as a private trade ?

[Booster]

There are sooooo many "home traders" these days that the "proper" motor dealers are blaming them for the auction prices being high of late as they have no overheads and most of them don't worry about warranties so they can take smaller margins.

[Thorburn]

Pretty sure the tax man considers anything under 6 cars a years as a hobby and as such not a tax situation.

A bit like buying houses, moving every 2 years and up scaling of the profits. Some start with £200k and end up in £2m houses- should that be taxed ?

I know the tax man talks to auto trader and the like, they look for common phone numbers and frequent advertisers. They do knock on doors of folk who have a certain (6+ p.a. ?) advert frequency and ask the obvious questions.

By rights anyone using ebay could be classed as a trader, so where does the system start the taxing and when should they simply accept it as a private trade ?

He aims to have a car no more than 7 days, so it seems likely he'll be shifting more than 6 cars a year.

With houses if you did what you propose with a first home no, purchases will involve paying stamp duty though. Second home and its capital gains surely? So you'll be getting taxed.

I'm not saying we should all pay tax every time we buy or sell anything second hand, but if he's running his own business trading cars and flouting the law then I'd have a problem with it.

Edited July 28, 2010 by Thorburn

[NewNiceMrMe]

Oh he doesn't buy a car every week - he just doesn't keep any that he does buy more than 7 days.

However, it'll be more than 6 a year. More like 2 a month I'd say.

He stood there today, talking about the fact he's going to see a Laguna tonight. If you own a Laguna, ask for £2k more than it's worth.:roflamo:

[mb]

He doesn't sound like the greatest character in the World but re the car the widow could have phoned a dealer & sold to them easily enough so I think she really didn't care that much that he was getting a good deal - would still have been good to share his "windfall" profit given he didn't have his cash tied up for long, it end up costing him far more than expected (the reason he originally said it was too much for him originally)

Re the tax - as others say he will have his comeuppance (I have to believe this !)

[mattburrow]

She wanted rid. He got a Bargain. Next time he may end up worse off. Who Knows. The fact is he is out there to make himself some money. As we all would. Some of us are Honest some of us are Not. Thats what makes the world go round

[cruiser647]

Re the DVLA interest - how many times would he NOT sign the paperwork about selling it - but just hold on to the sellers part with signature and get the new owner to sign?

That way he can get shot in 7 days and have no record of his ownership/holding it?

[cruiser647]

Also, why do people see the need to bragg about it?

You see this time and time again - people get caught for things by :-

a) telling friends

b) telling people they think they trust

c) putting it on the web

I mean, if I were buying and selling or shagging the bosses wife or fecking some 15 yr old - I would not tell anybody!!! Until on my deathbed!