IanHo Posted January 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Cheers Guys, I'll pop in to an independent specialist. I don't have a problem explaining the circumstances around why I need it checking. I know from my own job that if someone explains before hand what it is they've fecked up it makes life easier all round, at least they'll know what it is they are meant to be looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBM Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Ian, I'd keep schtum about how it happened as like you said earlier, they might start seeing pound signs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanHo Posted January 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 I'd want to see evidence of the damage of course before they do any work, like I said it drives as before. Also it may be a bit difficult to pull the wool over their eyes with the wheel in the state it's in . Can I borrow some of that chrome spray paint? I'll feel better knowing it was safe, particularly doing the miles I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_C Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 With Paul and Mac here, that is one hell of an impact, would rather ditch at dealers and not drive than risk. Wheel is fecked to put it bluntly, why spend £100 on a repair when you can get a new one for £225. Nonsensical. Guess you took chunks out of the tyres too? Personally would look at this lightly. Even if the new rim, tyre and tracking check costs £500, think what it could have cost if you went up the kerb, split the rim, grounded the bumper, knocked the brake disc, kinked the rack etc etc. £500 is a relative bargain compared to what could have been. On a touchy subject, did you have any form of traction control on at the time? Ian C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBM Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Easy tiger - I expect poor Ian H is p1553d off enough as it is without further chastisement from you guys.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_C Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 The bill could have been huge. Very lucky. The traction control comment relates to B5 and B6 traction control cutting the power. With a quattro the power of course helps you corner. Botang, of this parish, and Toby, mate from Bedford, have proved this to me in their quattros. Great feeling! One B5 S4 owner on RS246 had a 30 mph head on leaving a roundabout, road was slippy, tc cut all the power and he understeered straight into an oncoming car. Write off. Similar issues with the RS4. Will not let you pull away rapidly with much steering lock on. So you go to pull onto a dual carriageway, drop the hammer but the car doesn't do anything.... Ian C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanHo Posted January 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Tyre absolutely untouched not even a scuff mark (as I said previously). Sorry Guy's but none of you were there, have examined or driven the car (or read my previous posts by the sound of it!). Do you seriously think I would have driven it if there was even the slightest sign of damage to anything else. AS ALREADY STATED, "I'M GETTING THE FECKING THING CHECKED OUT." Hope that clears it up. If Chipsaway say it's repairable, I will then make that discision. I have e-mailed VAG Parts to get price & availability on a new Alloy. What more would you like me to do? Yes I did have ESP switched on, I suppose it could have sensed the front wheels losing grip cut the power and provoked the understeer? Does that mean it was the car's fault and not mine? I'll take it up with Audi, when I vist the factory next month. Cheers DM for you're support Top Bloke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brabus Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Just one more thing IanHo; You should probably get it checked out asap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanHo Posted January 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Dam I knew there was something I was meant to be doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBM Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Sounds like a bit of a worry, there have been many occasions recently when I have been coming off roundabouts and the ESP has come on not letting all the power go to the wheels - but I thought this was a positive aspect.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_C Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 [ QUOTE ] Yes I did have ESP switched on, I suppose it could have sensed the front wheels losing grip cut the power and provoked the understeer? Does that mean it was the car's fault and not mine? [/ QUOTE ] Had a sneaky feeling that Audi ESP may have played a part here. Would certainly not be the first case of electronic intervention causing a crash. Diesel, remember yours is fwd only and will understeer more underpower unlike a quattro version. Ian C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBM Posted January 31, 2005 Report Share Posted January 31, 2005 Good point. FWD does have it's bonus points (unless you've veering into the verge!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted January 31, 2005 Report Share Posted January 31, 2005 I'm confused by this thread. Is it just me that thinks cutting power doesn't cause understeer. This thread seems to point the finger of blame at the ESP which I think was simply doing what it's designed to do and if anything would have helped. If you come off the power then the weight is transferred forward giving more downward pressure and more grip. This alone could help get around the corner. Opening up the steering lock also helps. If you are understeering then you're already beyond the car's physical abilities (for the conditions) and hence need to change something. If you or ESP hadn't, then understeer would have continued or got worse. It seems strange defending a box of electrics but I don't see how it is in the slightest to blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBM Posted January 31, 2005 Report Share Posted January 31, 2005 Scotty, I think that's what I was trying to say earlier. I think if I ever have a problem it's from oversteer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted January 31, 2005 Report Share Posted January 31, 2005 Yeah you did : [ QUOTE ] there have been many occasions recently when I have been coming off roundabouts and the ESP has come on not letting all the power go to the wheels - but I thought this was a positive aspect.... [/ QUOTE ] I was just elaborating a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avus_Bub Posted January 31, 2005 Report Share Posted January 31, 2005 [ QUOTE ] I'm confused by this thread. Is it just me that thinks cutting power doesn't cause understeer. This thread seems to point the finger of blame at the ESP which I think was simply doing what it's designed to do and if anything would have helped. If you come off the power then the weight is transferred forward giving more downward pressure and more grip. This alone could help get around the corner. Opening up the steering lock also helps. If you are understeering then you're already beyond the car's physical abilities (for the conditions) and hence need to change something. If you or ESP hadn't, then understeer would have continued or got worse. It seems strange defending a box of electrics but I don't see how it is in the slightest to blame. [/ QUOTE ] With you on that one Scotty. I still love the lift off oversteer of my Clio 16v , great fun on roundabouts! The A4 on the other hand is a lot harder but not impossible to 'get the ar*e out' I'm glad I bit the bullet and went for Quattro though I can push the car so hard, the salesman tried to talk me out of it would you believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBM Posted January 31, 2005 Report Share Posted January 31, 2005 Cheers Scotty! I'm not much good at elaborating. I know when my esp activates, it makes me automatically take my foot off the gas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanHo Posted January 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2005 Following up from Scotty's post which makes a lot of sense, and to better understand why I found myself in the situation I did; I have done a bit of research in to the subject of understeer and ESP. The road where I had this problem is one I know well as it is literally 5 minutes from home. Basically you exit a roundabout on to a short straight of about 150 yards with a reasonably sharp bend to the right. The road is quite wide until well after the bend. As soon as I turned in to the bend, it was obvious that the car had no intention of turning (understeer). As I described earlier it was as if I had hit ice (although I knew I hadn’t). Now strangely I found a website linky that talks about what is known as plough understeer and specifically mentions FWD Audi A4's, here is a quote from the article: [ QUOTE ] And with a neutral-handling car being the stability control engineers’ aim, you can still have a lot of fun driving these cars. After all, subtleties of over- and under-steer are still there, with the stability control electronics helping you along. But maybe not for much longer. Recently I have driven no less than three new cars where the stability control has been set up to create not a neutral handling car, but one with plenty of understeer. And I am not talking about ‘good’ understeer where there’s just enough to settle the car and at the same time tell the driver to get their act together; but instead plough understeer of the sort that on a roundabout takes the car across two lanes of shrieking front-end rubber. It appears that in tight conditions, the stability control in these cars has been software engineered to actually create a car with a lot of understeer. (And the cars? The Lexus IS300, Audi A4 3-litre FWD, and the Audi Allroad.) And I may prefer under to over-steer, but a car that does neither until the complete limit of grip is reached is a helluva lot better... [/ QUOTE ] Now for me this is exactly what I experienced. Where I have in previous cars experienced understeer, I have had plenty of warning and been able to correct it easily. Obviously I am not denying my part in the incident, but it does pose questions when manufacturers start relying on software to potentially mask impending doom from the driver up to the point where the software gives up and only then does the driver know there is something amiss. So from what I have (probably) experienced, it does seem to indicate that ESP systems can have a negative impact in certain situations. Of course I am no expert on ESP systems and will not be driving with mine switched off. It would be interesting to know what other peoples experiences are and if anyone has driven regularly with ESP switched on/off and noticed different handling characteristics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted February 1, 2005 Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 Can you post or send me the whole article as it wants to charge me? The only way I can see the s/w provoking more understeer is if they brake the front wheels whilst it's understeering. Since ESP is only active when the throttle is applied then it means it would only happen if you're stilling supplying power. If you were then you're not going to be reducing the understeer anyway. If you lift of the throttle as one naturally does when understeering, ESP deactivates and hence doesn't influence anything. In my non-professional opinion, if despite all the electronics and the drivers action (i.e. lifting off) and you're still ploughing on then you're simply going much too fast for the conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanHo Posted February 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 Just tried it got the same problem. I found it from a Google search, so must have sneaked in a back way! Scotty I have PM'ed the whole article to you. The point I think it is trying to make is that ESP doesn’t necessarily cause the understeer, but masks it to such an extent that when you become aware of the problem it can be too late to take any action yourself. So in fact in is probably doing too good a job up until the moment where it breaks loose. Also there was a video I saw that demonstrated how The ESC element of ESP works using a B5 A4. What is meant to happen in an understeer situation is one or both of the rear brakes may be applied to try and bring the car back in line. I would imagine most people have had interesting moments, and have got away with it. The A4 is the first car I have owned with full ESP, others have had Traction Control and Electronic Brake Force Distribution but not the Electronic Stability Control element. Whilst there has got to be great safety benefits to these systems, personally I could live with out the ESC element as I would rather know what the car is doing at all times, rather than a computer decide what I should and should not know. IIRC when you "turn off" ESP you are in fact only disabling the Anti Slip Regulation element and not the EBD or ESC functions. This element of the A4 I personally dislike and compared to the Alfa I had previously detracts from the driving experience. In the Alfa, I knew exactly what the car was doing, and with it been company car got driven harder than I have ever driven the Audi (so far!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBM Posted February 1, 2005 Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 What's the latest on the damage Ian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanHo Posted February 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 Mmmmmmm getting a visit from Chipsaway in the morning, still not heard back from VAG Parts. Booked in for tracking & suspension/steering check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBM Posted February 1, 2005 Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 Vag parts can be a bit slow on the e-mail, but very helpful if you give them a call... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanHo Posted February 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 Got a number for them as I couldn't track it down off the website . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBM Posted February 1, 2005 Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 VAG Parts LTD - Sales Office - Pembroke Centre, Cheney Manor Estate, Swindon, Wiltshire, SN2 2PQ GB - Open: Monday to Friday 09:00 - 18:00 Telephone: +44 (0)1793 487700 Fax: +44 (0)1793 487701 E-mail : [email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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