SUMMONS came today .... HELP!

[Avus_Bub]

Got stopped on the M4 back in March For doing 113mph (VASCAR) past a marked car

Got home this evening to be greeted by my summons. Three and a half months. Oh well my little glimmer of hope has finally been pi**ed on.

It was just one of those open it up for a mile or two blasts and I was unlucky. Missed the E class Estate completely. Even the copper found it funny , I wasn't too impressed though (as you can imagine). I'd pulled back into the middle lane doing 75ish when he came blasting up behind me, blues and headlamps flashing.........

Soooooooooo.

I just wanted to hear any advice from you guys and if any of you have had recent first hand experience (or though friends) of what to expect from the court.

I guess there's no point in pleading not guilty so any good excuses would be most welcome.

Cheers

BUB

ME SOON

P.S I'd rather not be patronised about doing 113mph on a lightly trafficked motorway . I was overtaken yesterday in my Clio 16V by a Tart in a Polo - I was doing 35 in a 30.................. Nuff Said

[Ian_C]

You currently have a clean licence or a few points already in place? Hopefully you don't get banned. 113mph isn't that quick on a clear motorway... Or perhaps I have been in too many quattro Audis.

Ian

[Jon]

I'm not really sure but i thought they only had 14 days to send an NIP (Notice Of Intended Persecution)

Did they read your rights at the roadside?

Ask for a copy of the video and admit nothing, hopefully they will have *lost* it

Jon.

[Domus]

Turn up on time, booted and suited. Be very polite, be VERY VERY sorry. State how horrified you were when you found out that, with the lack of traffic on such a perfectly clear road, on a perfectly clear and dry day your speed crept up so much. After all that, just hope for the best. I got 6 points and £400.00 for 104 mph on M61. Nabbed in December, in court July. A lot of sweat in that time.

[scooby_simon]

By getting stopped and getting a you then also get issued with a NiP.

do a search on my posts for "Summons" and "Speeding" and "NiP" and you will find the comments I made in the past when I was caught 39 over the limit.

You might need a good lawyer !

[Simon690]

Get yourself onto this site and register to use the forum. There are loads of experts and experienced folks there who can advise you on the best course of action.

Good luck.

[Jon]

I feel even luckyer *SP* having been stopped 2 years ago on the M40, they know and i knew they could have done me for 138. The used discretion allowing for the conditions and did me for 98.52.

All the best m8, i know it sucks. That's why i never go above 83 now.

Jon.

[Avus_Bub]

[ QUOTE ]

Turn up on time, booted and suited. Be very polite, be VERY VERY sorry. State how horrified you were when you found out that, with the lack of traffic on such a perfectly clear road, on a perfectly clear and dry day your speed crept up so much. After all that, just hope for the best. I got 6 points and £400.00 for 104 mph on M61. Nabbed in December, in court July. A lot of sweat in that time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Domus........... That's kinda what I'm expeceting, I HOPE

I've a CLEAN license , 8 years no claims don't speed in 30's or 40's and always have a bath on Sunday whether I need it or not.......................

Keep 'Em coming chaps

[JamesB]

Not sure there's that much to add. There are all sorts of stories about wriggling out of speeding prosecutions on technicalities but I think the fact that you were stopped and spoken to rather rules out the usual 'don't know who was driving' or 'could be mistaken identity' lines.

As Scooby says, the 14 day NIP rule only applies if you haven't been spoken to.

I would always take the suited, booted, hold my hands up and say sorry approach. A clean licence has got to help, and if it really was a clear road in good conditions, you can mention it but be careful of trying to defend your behaviour.

Whatever you do, good luck.

James

PS I would also consider a lawyer at that speed.

[Avus_Bub]

[ QUOTE ]

Not sure there's that much to add.

Whatever you do, good luck.

James

PS I would also consider a lawyer at that speed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you James.

I was just looking for an idea of what to expect. I'm fully aware of the way the NIP works too.

It's the lawyer thing that worries me , I mean why bother? Can they really make that much difference ? Or do I just save my money for the fine, I can live with a 14 day ban.

It's just the thought of being Fecked by my insurance for the next 5 years that pi***s me off more than anything

But I've only got myself to blame

[ QUOTE ]

Get yourself onto this site and register to use the forum. There are loads of experts and experienced folks there who can advise you on the best course of action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Simon thank you too. Looks a very interesting read

BUB

[ian_m]

try speaking to Omi, he went to court a while back for a similar speed and wasnt even banned.

Good luck buddy

[JamesB]

For me, the lawyer is a safety net (if they're any good). They might not add much if you were always going to get it right in the first place but they might add a lot if you weren't.

...if you catch my drift

I think a 14 day ban is a strong possibility. Your clean licence is a plus but once you're over 110 I'm not sure the magistrate has much choice as they don't want to set a precedent. Still, I'm no expert on this so I wouldn't take my word as gospel. I seem to remember a site where people post the outcomes of their speeding adventures and I may well have picked it up on here. Have a look around TSN and a play on Google and you should find it.

[Omi]

Lawyer makes it look like you're trying to get off with it. There's no doubt that it was you and that you were doing that speed, so the best approach is to dress nice, write a brief note about your impeccable driving record (lucky you) and that your actions were inexcusable. - Express that you fully accept and deserve chastisement and ask that they consider your carefully laid out circumstances before issuing a ban.

You will have the opportunity to speak directly to the Magistrates, they should be addressed as "Your Worships" and don't overdo the eye contact. If they feel you're too confident, they'll not be lenient!

DO NOT TAKE YOUR CAR. Get a lift, just in case they ask.

I did most of the above, only with 2 x SP30s already on my licence. I drove the girlfriend's car home after a £200+costs fine and 5 bonus points on my licence.

Only need one more for the carriage clock!

I've got a belting Mitigating Plea if you want a copy?

[Mollox]

isn't a short ban preferable as you don't carry over any points?? Or am I totally missing the point here?

[pomme]

I got a 14 day ban for doing 106 on the M5. It took about 4 months to get the summons, but as i had beeen spoken to i already had the nip. But thought i must of got away with it, till i returned home from a 3 week hol to find the letter saying i had to be in court the next day (i was pretty lucky, but do think they should give more warning, as if i had gone on hol a week later i would have missed all letters from them and the court case).

this may help:

[ QUOTE ]

In Court, check in with the prosecutor and usher and make sure you are on the case list, and that he knows you have appeared for trial. This is just to make your presence known, and hope that may offer a plea bargain at this point, which you could consider. He may not. Look for the officer. If he doesn't appear, the charges should be dropped. This is where it is handy to reference the physical description you should have taken at the scene. If the officer does appear he may approach you and ask to talk to you before the trial. You don't have to, but it is polite to. Ask him to withdraw the charge. He won't likely do that. DO NOT indicate your strategy to him, or show him any notes or pictures. Keep this stuff in a manila envelope or briefcase so that it is out of view prior to the actual trial.

Cross Examining the Officer. This is your chance to put your notes and pictures to work. Ask the officer questions about the day to establish whether he really remembers the incident and you. If he doesn't seem to, ask him directly whether he really remembers what happened that day. Destroying the officers credibility is an excellent way to get acquitted.Ask about the radar or lidar equipment. If the officer refused to demonstrate the calibration, ask why and demand to know if the unit was truly calibrated. Each situation is different, but you should be able to use your notes to develop a strategy which insinuates that the equipment used to clock your speed was not accurate. If you achieve this you will be acquitted.Ask the officer about the laws in the area. This includes turn controls, signaling devices, speed limits, and so on. If he doesn't get it right, use your pictures of the area to prove that he is wrong. Showing that the officer does not understand the laws in effect in the area is another good way to reduce his credibility as a witness against you.You can try to go for the attack that the clocking may have been racially motivated. THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS and proceed with caution. If all goes well, you may make the officer lose his cool and throw a wobbly, this will drop his credibility. Or you may end up with a charge of contempt. Personally, I would leave this side of things unexplored.

Courtesy and Appearance. Do not underestimate the impression of a shower, clean shave, haircut, and nice suit and tie at the trial. You will look more innocent in this type of dress, and your chance of acquittal or fine reduction will be improved. You must also be courteous to the judge and officers of the court. If you make the judge mad, you will be convicted, so don't make him/her mad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also:

[ QUOTE ]

Visual Average Speed Computer And Recorder. This system is a timing computer, it has to be set for the distance first, between a bridge and a marker post for example and then the police officer presses a button at the start of the timed position when the vehicle passes, the bridge. When the vehicle passes the second position, the marker post, he then presses the button again, this will then give an instant average speed between two points.

VASCAR units deactivate automatically after 7 days which means the operators have recalibrate them, this however is not the case and most officers test the unit at the start of each shift. Common places for the use of VASCAR is on motorways, in which the police car will wait just out of sight on a slip road, and time the vehicle between two points, usually the white painted square or round markings on the road, but any fixed points can be used, that the distance between them is known. They can also use it when they are following you or when you are following them.

The minimum distance the police are allowed to is 0.125 miles - one-eighth of a mile. Under exceptional circumstances, they're allowed to go down to 0.07 miles but only in pre-fed or dial-in distance modes where the start and end points are not shadows. Police helicopters and Motorbikes can take the same measurements

Those white squares and circles that are painted on the road are used for VASCAR systems. They are set distances apart, and quite often are quite visible to the police from a great distance, they could be parked up to half a mile away and still get a speed reading of an offending vehicle. But remember any fixed point can be used, such as a lamppost.

This is potentially the easiest one to throw in court, but can be a hard job to do. It is open to human error on the timing positions and the pressing of the button.

Just a little note sent to me from a Traffic Officer."If Vascar is used correctly the margin of error is presumed to be the same at either end of the check.

The Home Office allows a percentage of error for the overall check and this built into the operating procedure. Each and every police officer undergoes an intensive training course to establish their margin of error. If it falls within the guide lines then it is "acceptable". So don't go using the info below unless you can prove your case without doubt."

Extract from USA Law Paper

VASCAR (Visual Average Speed Computer and Recorder) is really a stopwatch coupled with a calculator. Once a distance is entered, the operator pushes a button to start then stop the stopwatch. VASCAR displays the speed calculated from the distance entered and the time measured.

Thus, a VASCAR measurement depends on human input. Therefore, in order to make a VASCAR measurement as accurate as possible, the observer's/operator's reaction time must be as short as possible. (Reaction time is defined as "the time interval between an input signal (physiological) or a stimulus (psychophysiological) and the response elicited by the signal.)

What is considered "normal" human reaction time? First, let's take a look at the best: Drag racers. Average reaction time of (Top Fuel) drag racers at the 1997 U.S. Nationals was 0.124 ± 0.082 second. Imagine that our cop running VASCAR is a super cop, with drag racer like reaction times: What kind of error is introduced into the VASCAR speed measurement by a reaction time of 0.124 second? With the numbers testified to by our cop:

Distance ÷ Real time ± Error = Measured Speed

100 ÷ 1.54 + 0.124= 60.096 feet/second (40.97 mph)

or

100 ÷ 1.54 - 0.124= 70.621 feet/second (48.15 mph)

Depending on whether the cop was 0.124 second too quick or too late.

The calculation above takes into consideration only one opportunity for error.

However, the cop must not only start the VASCAR's stopwatch, but he also must stop it. Thus, he can introduce the error twice:

100 ÷ 1.54 + 0.248= 55.928 feet/second (38.13 mph)

or

100 ÷ 1.54 - 0.248= 77.399 feet/second (52.77 mph)

Looks like we are getting some error margin here: it is almost 15 mph. But wait a minute: the cop alleged that he clocked our man 66 mph (96.8 feet/second).

If true, the elapsed time over 100 feet distance was 1.033 second. The error in speed reading introduced by human reaction time becomes even more severe:

100 ÷ 1.033 + 0.248= 78.064 feet/second (53.225 mph)

or

100 ÷ 1.033 - 0.248= 127.388 feet/second (86.855 mph)

WOW! An error margin of more than 33 mph! And remember we assumed that the super cop in this example has reaction times similar to a drag racer!

Imagine if the cop is only human: Average adults show reaction times around 0.3 second -- it's not even worthwhile to do the calculation. Obviously, we can no longer talk about accuracy and VASCAR in the same sentence. One can conclude that using VASCAR over a 100-foot distance cannot yield any accurate speed reading for the speeds alleged in our man's case. We come to this conclusion even before considering other sources of error, such as visual distortion introduced by the parallax effect.

A little note though UK Police don't take a reading over this distance, theirs is greater, so the reading could be more accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

from:http://www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk

if you can do without the car for the time period is better then the 6 points.

Well i think it is, as insurance companies take a ban of a month or less as 6 points, so they are the same in that respect. but the difference comes if you already have or get points in the future, so staying a bit further away from the dredded 12.

Andrew

[sidicks]

Don't get your hopes up too much. I'd prepare yourself for a ban of some kind.

I got banned for 50 days for doing 109mph on the A1(M) plus a large fine (according to my dad (who is a JP), the maxium recommended penalty for 30-40mph is an 8 week ban.......)

Bear in mind that this was a dry day, at lunchtime, with very little other traffic, and like you I'd just put my foot down for a couple of minutes before realising how fast I was going and the risk I was taken. I'd already slowed to 75mph before I saw the police car.

Also I'd dressed smartly for the occassion, was very humble and apologetic and this was my first offence of any kind in 10 years of driving, so to get a near maximum penalty was very harsh.

However:

1) I didn't have a lawyer, as I felt that given I was going to plead guilty and appear very sorry, wasn't sure they would add much

2) I didn't (couldn't) try and justify that the loss of my car would cause me undue hardship, as I felt that trying to make excuses wouldn't go down well.

My friend was stopped for a similar speed in similar circumstances soon after and he only got banned for 7 days, as he argued that he couldn't be without his car (although this wasn't really true).

Maybe honestly isn't the best policy after all !!

Finally, I'd argue that having a ban for speeding (even though you don't get any points) is considered much worse than just 3 points etc by insurance companies.

Good Luck !

Sidicks

[Omi]

Either you two got it really harsh, or I was just the most suave mo-fo they'd ever seen!

[NewNiceMrMe]

Avus_bob, firstly you have my sympathy because I think this could happen to most people on TSN that are likely to 'boot' their car every now and again on what looks like a clean stretch of road.

I would tend to agree with those that suspect a ban is pretty much a certainty though. A clean record is a very good starting point of course but if they've recorded a speed above 110 as you say then I'd be more inclined to think a 14 day ban would actually be a rather lucky outcome.

Good luck though mate, I genuinely wish you well on this one.

[Avus_Bub]

Thanks for that M3me, I remember at the time you had a little brush with the law yourself.............

Thanks also to the rest of you who have given me some sort of idea of what to expect.

I really hope it's a 14 day job - I'm off to Florida on the 3rd Sept and the Mrs is already bending my earholes about not wanting to drive over there

BUB

[Tturbo]

I really would recommend getting a specialist motoring solicitor.

I got caught at 123 mph on the M61 about 2 years ago. I was in a similar postion to you, having never had a motoring conviction, and managed to get away with a 21 day ban.

The solictor that I got was fantastic in court, I'm sure that if it hadn't heen for him I'd have got a lot longer ban.

[a4tdi130]

Omi, I'd love to see a copy of your mitigation speech if you don't mind? A colleague's sister has just been caught doing 105 on the motorway so it could come in handy as he's asked for my advice.

[pomme]

[ QUOTE ]

Finally, I'd argue that having a ban for speeding (even though you don't get any points) is considered much worse than just 3 points etc by insurance companies.

[/ QUOTE ]

From when i spoke to insurance companies they equate a 14 to 30 day ban to 6 points, anything over is alot worse. So im guessing as your ban was for 50 days, this is the experience you had had. If other please could you let me know the details of insurance companies thinking a 14 day was worse then a 6 points (in the same incident).

Andrew