jem2768 Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Yeah well, just throw the spanner in, I think it's irresponsible to drive any car in this day and age that isn't fitted with ESP as standard. There. Flame suit zipped! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Just trying to justify why I feel switching off a fairly major safety aid whilst driving on the road is not such a good idea. Agree it is unlikely that this scenario will happen, but then it is unlikely I'll be involved in a serious crash on my way home tonight. I'll still put my seatbelt on just in case though, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woppum Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 I think Aris right, if the car is fitted with a safety precaution device, which could save your life, why turn it off....unless you want to power slide a round about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Well yeah, if you wanna powerslide a roundabout then turn it off of course! Goes without saying! Just flick it back on afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo-S3 Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 OK ive been reading these posts very carefully about leaving ur ESP on during normal driving, and i agree with what ur saying in that respect. I can also understand the ESP kicking in when pulling out of a junction in the wet but whats it excuse for kicking when leaving a junction in the dry ? Or even on a straight line ? Ok mine has been lowered and i have noticed it ccoming on about 90% more often now than it did prior to lowering it. How would lowering the car affect the ESP's sensors for it to be coming on so often? To be honest it getting to a point where its annoying ansd i end up switching it off when pulling away hard and then switching back immediately afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Sounds like somethings got messed up there. My A3 was the 180hp quattro not an S3, but non the less it never lit the ESP up in the dry, and only under severe provacation in the wet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veracocha Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Admittedly we were driving chipped S3's all over 270bhp so that is probably part of the reason as well as the sliding! For me it's simple: Fast drive = OFF, All other times = ON. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woppum Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Im not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 My car used to engage the esp in a straight line in the dry in 1st 2nd and 3rd. Fecking hated it...So turned it off *all the time*. It was the only way I felt confident in what the car was doing - and I'm sure I drove slower for it. Now I have the right tyres and wheels I tend to leave it on - it only interferes when I'm expecting a bit of slippage so its a bit more predictable. I don't care what you say - ESP cannot overcome the laws of physics. You over commit to a corner then you are over commited - theres no [censored] about there. ESP will help the average dumb ass driver who reacts incorroctly though I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audidude Posted June 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 [ QUOTE ] ESP will help the average dumb ass driver who reacts incorroctly though I guess. [/ QUOTE ] It had to happen! ESP user="dumb ass driver". Guess I'll hand in my notice as a track day instructor and learn how sense when my cars yaw condition is so extreme that I need to apply seperate braking control to all 4 wheels independently - shouldn't be too difficult Or maybe just become the world's most perfect driver like some here. Excuse my tone MacRS4, but utilising sophisticated car control aids in order to prevent a head on at closing speed that might be unsurvivable does not ="dumb ass" IMHO. That's really what this is about, and the fallability of even the worlds most skilled driver. I don't think anyone expects ESP to overcome the laws of physics but there is an envelope of car handling condition that no amount of driver input will allow recovery but within which sophisticated control of the vehicle's dynamics through ESP can regain control. I witnessed this demonstrated beautifully in Porsche 911s by Porsche's own instructors. ESP increases the safety envelope. No question. Leave it off "all the time" like some here and maybe one day the price mught be high - maybe someone else will pay that price. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester s3 Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 [quote ESP increases the safety envelope. No question. Leave it off "all the time" like some here and maybe one day the price mught be high - maybe someone else will pay that price. Cheers [/ QUOTE ] It's not that we, or shall I say I, do not disagree with the fact that it is a saftey aid . The point here is dependant on the driver, for most they keep it on and are happy do drive as so, like my beloved girlfriend . Me, nah . When you look at it there a number of cars that do not have ESP or traction control, pre 1999 (I guess). My Clio Williams didn't but it didn't stop from driving fast or sensibly. Because I turn the ESP OFF does not automatically mean I will lay it into every corner at an immense speed every where I go , it means to me that the car will do what I want it to do without me having to worry further on what the car may do with ESP ON. I am not fortunate to have done a driving course (but have done my IAM test) nor be an instructor for one , I am merely a driver who intends to make the best use of his standard car. Then again, I guess I should pump up the BHP to make the car faster and therefore more dangerous to other road users; then I should have ESP ON just in case I slip off the road under the additional power I have extracted. Good thread audidude. Damn I knew I should have given 4 stars....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] ESP increases the safety envelope. No question. Leave it off "all the time" like some here and maybe one day the price mught be high - maybe someone else will pay that price. Cheers [/ QUOTE ] Me, nah . When you look at it there a number of cars that do not have ESP or traction control, pre 1999 (I guess). My Clio Williams didn't but it didn't stop from driving fast or sensibly. [/ QUOTE ] Cars didn't used to have seatbelts or airbags or radial tyres once, does that mean that when you buy a new car now with these features you swap your Radials for a set of Crossplies and remove the seatbelts and airbag? [ QUOTE ] Because I turn the ESP OFF does not automatically mean I will lay it into every corner at an immense speed every where I go , it means to me that the car will do what I want it to do without me having to worry further on what the car may do with ESP ON. [/ QUOTE ] The point is that ESP is not so you can corner faster, but safer. And it won't do anything unless you are actually in a skid so as long as you are in control the ESP will be inactive and you won't have to worry about it [ QUOTE ] I am not fortunate to have done a driving course (but have done my IAM test) nor be an instructor for one , I am merely a driver who intends to make the best use of his standard car. [/ QUOTE ] Surely making best use of your standard car is to utilise all of its functions to make the car, and ultimately you and other road users, as safe as possible? [ QUOTE ] Then again, I guess I should pump up the BHP to make the car faster and therefore more dangerous to other road users; then I should have ESP ON just in case I slip off the road under the additional power I have extracted. [/ QUOTE ] Err... that depends on whether you are going to use that extra power to drive at an unsafe speed. Surely no matter how powerful your car, whether modded or mot, the onus is on you to utilise that power in a safe manner? Point is a car with ESP on has an additional safety envelope. No it won't rewrite the laws of physics, if you are going too fast to make a corner you'll crash. However it can and will do things that you cannot no matter how skilled you are, such at braking one wheel independant of the rest to pull an understeering or overstering car straight. Sure you might be an ace whizz driver that can "ride the slide", opposite locking your way out of the slide like the rally driver you think you are, but if there is another vehicle, or a pedestrian, or a solid wall between you and the point at which you finally "gather it up" when ESP would have tweaked the car straight earlier then you aint going to look quite so gung ho clever... [/ QUOTE ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veracocha Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 Hey Greg - look what you've done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 Meant to say also, important point is that ESP is an ACTIVE safety measure not a passive one, in other words designed to keep you out of trouble in the first place rather than protect you once you are involved in a crash (like seatbelts are for example). Therefore your decision to switch it off has the potential to affect other people whereas choosing to not wear a seatbelt cos you are such an ace driver is only going to impact (literally!) on you if it all goes Pete Tong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veracocha Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 Ari - I completely agree with what you are saying. You have raised some good points. I am not sure anymore what we are disagreeing on anymore. I think everyone accepts that ESP should be left on for the majority of the time. I don't think it is irresponsible to turn ESP off occasionally when you want a spirited drive on a road you know well. The truth is that ESP contradicts quattro when pushing on and I don't accept that for the 5% of the time when I want to have a blast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester s3 Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 Cars didn't used to have seatbelts or airbags or radial tyres once, does that mean that when you buy a new car now with these features you swap your Radials for a set of Crossplies and remove the seatbelts and airbag? <Strange idea ARI. Buy a car, remove this and that and then drive, err..no thanks if that is how you see the use of ESP ON/OFF in terms of other areas then you are weird. The point is, you the driver have a switch to turn it off or on. You the driver has the onus on whether it is switched on or off. You the driver have the option, why else would Audi put it there. If it was to be a standard there would be no switch. > The point is that ESP is not so you can corner faster, but safer. And it won't do anything unless you are actually in a skid so as long as you are in control the ESP will be inactive and you won't have to worry about it <I acknowledge the use of ESP and where it would come in, that is why i personally turn it off> Surely making best use of your standard car is to utilise all of its functions to make the car, and ultimately you and other road users, as safe as possible? <I am using all of it's functions, the ESP ON/OFF is a function that I am using same as turning ON/OFF the radio. So if I have the ESP ON and using the phone, I'm safe because I'm using the ESP? Common sense prevails I'm sure.> Err... that depends on whether you are going to use that extra power to drive at an unsafe speed. Surely no matter how powerful your car, whether modded or mot, the onus is on you to utilise that power in a safe manner? <Exactomundo, thats the idea of driving, for me to feel safe the ESP is OFF, for you to feel safe your ESP is ON, each to their own> Point is a car with ESP on has an additional safety envelope. No it won't rewrite the laws of physics, if you are going too fast to make a corner you'll crash. However it can and will do things that you cannot no matter how skilled you are, such at braking one wheel independant of the rest to pull an understeering or overstering car straight. <Fair point, can't disagree with that> Sure you might be an ace whizz driver that can "ride the slide", opposite locking your way out of the slide like the rally driver you think you are, <Nah, can't do that in a S3 effectivley, never could. Rally Driver, me. Nah Ace Whizz Driver, me. Nah Driver who uses his car in a safe manner but not using ESP, yes.> but if there is another vehicle, or a pedestrian, or a solid wall between you and the point at which you finally "gather it up" when ESP would have tweaked the car straight earlier then you aint going to look quite so gung ho clever... <True, True, I for one do not intend that to happen. However if you see that is what would happen by having the ESP OFF, then you have a lot to learn about driving safely. Take the IAM test, you learn alot from these dudes> Feck, never could get a hang of that quoting thing. Bugger I better do some work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 [ QUOTE ] True, True, I for one do not intend that to happen. However if you see that is what would happen by having the ESP OFF, then you have a lot to learn about driving safely. Take the IAM test, you learn alot from these dudes> [/ QUOTE ] But that is exactly the whole damn point! Read the very first post again. [ QUOTE ] True, True, I for one do not intend that to happen [/ QUOTE ] Quite simply no one intends to have an accident, or drives in a way that encorouges one, but as per the very first post bad things can happen to anyone. You might be doing everything right, you might be IAM trained (and for the record yes I have had advanced driving lessons too) but if you hit spilt diesel, if a car pulls out in front of you, whatever, then ESP is there as a safety net able to do things to attempt to recover the situation that quite bluntly you cannot do, like braking individual wheels. It won't overcome everything and it is not infallable but it is effective and it could make the difference between a "moment" and an accident (again read the very first post of this thread) ESP works. I've tried it in a controlled environment and I've seen a high speed demonstration of its effective use (try watching two VW Polos doing a high speed lane change in the wet, one with ESP, one without, (GTI International last year). You would be amazed at the difference in how much extra room the non ESP car needed to recover). Bottom line is, you may find yourself one day in a bad situation that ESP might have been able to pull you out of. But if you've made the decision to switch it off and as a result you are unable to recover the situation yourself in the room available to you and end up piling into something, or worse someone, then I'd say you have made a grave error in making that decision. To compare it to choosing whether the radio is on or off is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 [ QUOTE ] Cars didn't used to have seatbelts or airbags or radial tyres once, does that mean that when you buy a new car now with these features you swap your Radials for a set of Crossplies and remove the seatbelts and airbag? <Strange idea ARI. Buy a car, remove this and that and then drive, err..no thanks if that is how you see the use of ESP ON/OFF in terms of other areas then you are weird. [/ QUOTE ] But that is exactly what you are doing. You are taking a modern safety aid (like seatbelts or radial tyres) and saying "hell no, I never crashed before so I don't need them. I'll remove them" When you switch off ESP you are removing it from use as surely as switching your radial tyres for crossplies removes that advance in technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veracocha Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 Why do you think that Audi made it switchable in the first place? Becuase they know that driving enthusiasts are going to turn it off when they want to use the cars full potential. It is perfectly reasonable. If you asked Audi they would probably say that. It is not like not putting your seat belt on because the S3 is perfectly capable with or without ESP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 If you read through the thread someone has already stated that the reason it is switchable is because it cannot cope with snow. I can imagine also that in a safe controlled environment such as a track then it is nice to have the option of being able to slide the car around as you are not endangering anyone but yourself if you get it wrong. Yes the car is perfectly capable without it, but it is clearly more capable of extreme situation accident avoidance with it. Back to the crossply/radial scenario. Cars were not unsafe on crossply tyres, but they are more safe on radial tyres. Same with seatbelts, people have survived crashes withot seatbelts, but you are safer with them on. Who would choose a "less safe" option...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreacherCain Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 I think Audi made ESP switchable because it's crap at recognising snow, ice and loose surfaces and makes it impossible to drive on them (I know, I've tried it...) rather than for the enthusiast driver. I nearly had a monstrous off shortly after getting my A3 - I wasn't used to the dynamics, didn't know the road, and hadn't really come to terms with just how much faster than a Mk2 1.3 Golf it was. Went into a corner on an NSL road, it looked OK, but tightened hard about 2/3 the way round, and was adversely cambered. Without ESP, I'd have hit a tree, or possibly just a lamp-post. As it was, I felt the tyres let go, just about had time to say "Oh, sh-" and found myself in control again. Most impressive... I must say, I do find ESP intrusive since I had the car chipped, as it doesn't like wheelspin and I have an FWD car, but that's something I've learned to live with - As long as you don't mash the gas pedal in first, it seems to stay dormant. Or of course, you can always set off in second... The point is, to my mind, the advantages of having ESP switched on significantly outweigh the costs. It can do things I can't. It won't panic, be inattentive, listening to a passenger, distracted, afraid, or slow-witted. Which is more than I can say for the Mk1 Human Brain running Mind 0.1. I can't brake wheels independently, and I don't have a calibrated yaw sensor in my head. I'm only human, which is why having ESP is a comfort... Bottom line, as I see it, is that if you wanted a direct, fully-keyed-in driving experience, you should have bought an Elise... If you honestly believe that you can drive better without the ESP safety net, then turn it off, and leave it off. And I truly hope you're right. For me, I'll leave it on, and at least I'll never have to think "would this not have happened if I'd left the ESP on". I'd hate to have responsibility for a decision made on the spur of the moment that might have kept me or someone else alive or uninjured if I'd chosen differently. Sure, it's unlikely. But it's a chance I don't feel comfortable taking, and I've never been in a dangerous driving situation that I wasn't responsible for putting myself in. Certainly I can't blame ESP for any of 'em... Can any of us, honestly? On one of the other fora I use to while away my days, there's an ongoing debate between the Pro-ABS and Anti-ABS factions. The Antis claim they can stop faster by locking the wheels and cadence braking, and the Pros contend that you're doing pretty well to cadence 3 or 4 times in an emergency stop, let alone 200 times a second, like a current ABS can. The Antis claim it compromises the directness of car handling and safety, the Pros answer that by the time ABS kicks in, you need all the help you can get. At the end of all this august debate, the two sides never reach an agreement, and it always degenerates into willy-waggling and unrealistic claims of driver skill... Don't let it happen here... This is a cracking thread, and that (finally!) is my tuppence worth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester s3 Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Cars didn't used to have seatbelts or airbags or radial tyres once, does that mean that when you buy a new car now with these features you swap your Radials for a set of Crossplies and remove the seatbelts and airbag? <Strange idea ARI. Buy a car, remove this and that and then drive, err..no thanks if that is how you see the use of ESP ON/OFF in terms of other areas then you are weird. [/ QUOTE ] But that is exactly what you are doing. You are taking a modern safety aid (like seatbelts or radial tyres) and saying "hell no, I never crashed before so I don't need them. I'll remove them" When you switch off ESP you are removing it from use as surely as switching your radial tyres for crossplies removes that advance in technology. [/ QUOTE ] I hear what you are saying and we all can bang on about the way it works, the differences, the reasoning of it, the tests that have be administered, the instances it has occured etc but all in all, some feel safer with it on, some feel safer with it off, bottom line. Yes the ESP is there to provide a service, I do not want that service therefore I turn it off. Neither of us want to be in a crash, but fate does mysterious things to us whether ESP is ON or OFF, going fast or going slow, it'll happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veracocha Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 Also when I drove the S3 on pure snow and ice last Christmas the ESP didn't even kick in - all wheels just spun. You would imagine that the car would be buckarooing all over the place but it wasn't like that when I drove it. Whether the program is the same on all cars I don't know - but I am sure that ESP can detect ice and snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 [ QUOTE ] but all in all, some feel safer with it on, some feel safer with it off, bottom line. Yes the ESP is there to provide a service, [/ QUOTE ] It is not a matter of whether you feel safer or not, it is a fact that you ARE safer with it on. I feel safer with a seatbelt on, but that is because I am safer with it on. [ QUOTE ] I do not want that service therefore I turn it off. Neither of us want to be in a crash, but fate does mysterious things to us whether ESP is ON or OFF, going fast or going slow, it'll happen. [/ QUOTE ] How spectacularly you miss that point! [ QUOTE ] but fate does mysterious things to us whether ESP is ON or OFF, going fast or going slow, it'll happen. [/ QUOTE ] The point is there is a chance that with ESP on the accident might be avoided!!!!! Not guaranteed, but non the less it is an aid that may very well get you out of trouble, and going by the very real examples above has already done so for several people on this board. To say "hey its fate, I'll crash anyway" is remarkable! You might as well not wear a seatbelt and say "hey its fate, I'll die anyway", after all, a seatbelt may not save your life in a crash, but you've a better chance if you are wearing one so you'd be mad not to. Wouldn't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonU Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 [ QUOTE ] Ari - I completely agree with what you are saying. You have raised some good points. I am not sure anymore what we are disagreeing on anymore. I think everyone accepts that ESP should be left on for the majority of the time. I don't think it is irresponsible to turn ESP off occasionally when you want a spirited drive on a road you know well. The truth is that ESP contradicts quattro when pushing on and I don't accept that for the 5% of the time when I want to have a blast. [/ QUOTE ] I think you'll find that quattro works with not against ESP as it's got electronic control. SimonU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now