ChrisBuer Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 New cars…. My mind was wandering on the train to work this morning (as it normally does) as I scanned through Autocar It seems like the next batch of “hot hatches” are getting a tad on the expensive side (compared to prices in previous years). Yes I realise that prices go up, but the new Clio 197 will be coming in at 16k and the new Honda Civic Type R is expected in at around 18k. As I’ve been a member of a lot of forums (the above included), one of the main fascinations with these cars is that they are bargain performance hatches! I’ve seen the argument many times where people have said “why would you want to buy a xxxx car when you can get a Clio / Honda for xxxx less!”. Yeah I agree there are many factors that sway peoples decisions on which vehicle to choose, but the majority of people going for cars like the Honda Civic Type R and Clio Sport are generally younger people who are looking for a performance car at reduced costs. I’m thinking that with this new batch coming in, will the current enthusiasts be able to afford or want to pay out for these new hot models?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shao_khan Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 I thought the Clio was fantastic money - I think my 172 I paid almost £10k for brand new - you cant complain about that kind of money when the car is such great fun. I still regret not buying a 182 trophy when I had the chance. Trouble is tho the new Golf GTi is expensive and I think set a bit of a benchmark in the sector. I wonder if it will change at all when the Golf GT arrives with that 1.4 turbo/supercharger engine in it as that should have plenty performance but be aimed a long way down the price scale from the GTI. It looks to me though that all the manufacturers are aiming at the same price band and I'm sure the Golf started that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisBuer Posted May 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 Well this is my point. I mean prices will generally always increase and there’s no argument there. But what I have noticed is that the price of the “hot hatch” now has really gone up quite a bit. I’ve got a lot of friends that are die hard CTR or Clio Cup fans and would never change over to something like a Golf. Personally I prefer the Golf and have an R32 on order myself. I just got me thinking really. I mean going back a few years, a lot of my friends (most of them actually) had these cars (I’m only 27 myself, but have friends in their early 20’s). The reason they managed to get them was the relatively low cost and they got more bang for their bucks! Thing is now, with this new generation coming in, I’m wondering if the hot hatch market is shifting away from the original catchment clients and more towards the older more affluent person? Who knows, only time will tell, but I think it’s a shame that these cars, which introduce people to performance motoring, will be out of reach to more people now! Thing is…apart from the Golf GT…there doesn’t seem to be much in the middle between the “supermini” and the hot hatch! Fiesta ST maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonl Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Trouble is tho the new Golf GTi is expensive [/ QUOTE ] I can't see how you can substansiate that. A 200bhp 'German' car with fantastic dynamics, a quality badge, and great performance isn't bad for the same money as a bog standard 318i. I paid 18k for my 1.8T back in 2000. The V5's and V6's back then were touching and exceeding £20k. How much was a Corrado VR6 in the 90's (19k or so), How much would that same car be now with 3dr's and around 200bhp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_d Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 The Audi S3 due out in November is expected to be around £30k RS3 perhaps would be even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5to1 Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Trouble is tho the new Golf GTi is expensive [/ QUOTE ] I can't see how you can substansiate that. A 200bhp 'German' car with fantastic dynamics, a quality badge, and great performance isn't bad for the same money as a bog standard 318i. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think thats really a relevant comparrison. Ones a hatchback. The others a Saloon. I don't mean to offend. But IMO for most people there is a percieved ceiling for hatchbacks. Once they start touching or passing 20k they are considered expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 RS3 expected to be around £38K. A heck of a car but you don't get much extra than an A3/S3 except performance. The Golf has grown to be almost more than a hatch. It's in reality quite a big car amongst hatches with as much accommodation (5-dr version) as an Audi A4. I agree that Clios etc are important for a less wealthy (probably younger) market. I hope it won't be like housing where youngsters cannot afford their first property! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 [ QUOTE ] I don't mean to offend. But IMO for most people there is a percieved ceiling for hatchbacks. Once they start touching or passing 20k they are considered expensive. [/ QUOTE ] ....I see your point but the term "expensive" usually means "not too good value for money" and, whether you like the GTI or not, it's very good value for money considering everything it provides as an allrounder imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_d Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 [ QUOTE ] RS3 expected to be around £38K. A heck of a car but you don't get much extra than an A3/S3 except performance [/ QUOTE ] I would imagine the RS3 would be a fully specced car like the RS4. Bucket seats, front and rear sensors, cruise control, full leather, carbon fibre interior etc etc as standard. If you look at the pricelist for the RS4 the only thing you really need to add is sat nav. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusoe Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 hot hatches used to be cheap to run too - large engine in small car equation which used to give 35ish mpg (lupo gti, 106gti, 205 gti, mk1,2 golf etc.) new hot hatches VXR astra, ST focus etc. you have a big engine in a big car and expect 20s mpg. High insurance groups too. large potential for a decent hot hatch supermini - cooper s wasn't great IMO and too thirsty and expensive. The new fiat 500 with 140bhp (roumered for the sporty model) and 900ish kg could be a real blast though. 200 ish bhp in a small turbo motor in the new punto has potential. Decent sporty motor in the aygo/106/c1 chassis could be good, suzuki swift has a 4x4 chassis already in other markets and could handle a decent engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisBuer Posted May 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 Yes Red, you’ve hit the nail on the head. Expensive can be deemed as “not good value for money”! I think the reason why people go for the Golf is that it offers a lot for 20k. Heck, some of my friends think my new R32 is expensive, but it just has so much kit on it that I think it’s great value! However, I think it is because of all this “extra kit” that the previously less expensive hot hatches are now costing more on the whole. Look at it like this, one manufacturer offers electric windows, heated seats, rain sensing wipers, etc on their new model and their rival will want to do the same. We’re in an era of high power for low cost (relatively compared to say 5 years ago). 200bhp now isn’t massively powerful to be fair, yeah it makes a car quick, but then when you have a BMW that puts out over 500bhp, it puts it into perspective. I think most manufacturers hitting this 200bhp mark now are looking at ways in order to increase their sales over other 200bhp rivals. The Golf has gone for the more grown up approach and it works. However cars like the Clio and CTR, which were previously pretty bare cars with powerful engines are now getting a lot of kit thrown into them. This of course pushes up the price and is why we’re now facing a situation where these “hot hatches” will soon be out of reach from the original consumer catchment group they were originally intended for! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sayerbloke Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 [ QUOTE ] I hope it won't be like housing where youngsters cannot afford their first property! [/ QUOTE ] Second hand cars will still depreciate... houses don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon magnifique Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 I think what Shao Khan meant was that the Golf GTI is expensive for a hot hatch, in the traditional sense of the genre. That's very different than saying it isn't good value for money as a car. It's a very different car to the Mk1 GTI - it's about twice as big for a start. When hot hatches first arrived on the scene, they were affordable sporty versions of small family hatchbacks. The original Golf GTI, Astra GTE, XR3i etc. would all retail these days at less than £15k. But remember, these cars had 120bhp at best and fairly basic spec, apart from the obligatory tartan trimmed recaros! As the market developed, the original hot hatches got bigger and a new breed of smaller hot hatch was born - XR2, Clio 16v, Nova SRi/GTE. Now we've reached the point where a new Clio Sport is bigger, better spec'd, much faster, and (relatively speaking) quite alot dearer than the Mk1 Golf GTI. As Chris Buer said at the start of the thread, where does that leave the hot hatch genre? Younger drivers want something sporty, but it's seldom cool to have a "warm" hatch when you know there's a better, faster, dearer version of the same model. As cars have got bigger and faster, I think there's a hole developing in the market. Let's face it, back in 1986 would any of you have seriously thought that in twenty years time a standard fwd hot hatch would have more power than a Sierra Cosworth? (Malagus - you don't have to try and answer that one... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonl Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 [ QUOTE ] I don't mean to offend. But IMO for most people there is a percieved ceiling for hatchbacks. Once they start touching or passing 20k they are considered expensive. [/ QUOTE ] I think that used to be the case. But since the introduction of Premium Hatches, the bar has now raised. The quality, performance and luxury are still there, but are cheaper in hatch guise. A saloon equivalent of the GTI would be at least 24-25k, less dynamic and 'arguably' less practicle too. I think the old days of hatchbacks being inferior to saloon cars has now passed. Sticking big engines in fun packages opens up a whole new market for the man/woman who would have traditionaly forked out for a saloon. Not saying saloons are dead, far from it, But as Hatchbacks get bigger and more luxurious, it's misperception to tar them with the same brush as those screamers from the 80's and early 90's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_d Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 What about size aswell? BMW and Audi hatches are rather large in comparison to the rest, and they cost more than the rest. Both the A3 and the 1 series just look like their saloon counterparts from the front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chav Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 I blame high car prices on the ease of getting finance. As most people now finance a new car, the relevant cost for most is cost per month rather than overall price. And PCP plans allow car makers to boost their prices even higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shao_khan Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 From my perspective the Golf GTi is expensive - I didnt say it was poor value for money, I've driven a GTI and think it is a fine car, I still wish I had got a Clio Trophy, never wished i'd got a GTi. For me the GTi has just seemed expensive for a GTi, and I have had previous Golf GTI and Lupo GTi, new one just didnt have anything to tempt me into that price range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChadW Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 AFAIK the 306 GTi6 was about £18k when it first came out 9 years ago, so guess these type of car have never really been that cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon magnifique Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 But by then, other 'larger' hot hatches were similar in price - the 'cheap' end still had plenty of choice (106 Rallye, Clio etc etc). 9 years ago is 1997 - the hot hatch genre was into at least its second generation by then, probably third. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonl Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 [ QUOTE ] What about size aswell? BMW and Audi hatches are rather large in comparison to the rest [/ QUOTE ] Are they I suggest you go and sit in the back of a 1 series and then in a golf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack_is_Back Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 Safety plays a big part in the weight and size of todays' hot hatches. Engine power is increased both to counter this and move up a notch performance-wise with each generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_d Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] What about size aswell? BMW and Audi hatches are rather large in comparison to the rest [/ QUOTE ] Are they I suggest you go and sit in the back of a 1 series and then in a golf. [/ QUOTE ] From the outside the BMW looks alot bigger, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanG Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 And Yet in the USA the new Golf GTI 2.0T is £12,500 including all taxes etc......!!!!!!!!!!!! RIP OFF BRITAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shao_khan Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 The other issue is that what was a hot hatch is now really a Hot Family size medium sector Hatch (IMO), the GOlf, Astra, Focus are all bigger - is what we need is more stuff atthe Polo / Fox size levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusoe Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 [ QUOTE ] Safety plays a big part in the weight and size of todays' hot hatches. Engine power is increased both to counter this and move up a notch performance-wise with each generation. [/ QUOTE ] you all need to buy one of these instead http://www.auto-journals.com/s2/content/brabussmart1.html 125bhp remap and it'll keep up with most of the faster hot hatches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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