Torsion Quattro Vs Haldex Quattro

[kenny_boon]

Hi all,

just a quick question to those who have driven both the VAG/Audi 4wd systems.

how does the Haldex compare with the full time 4wd?

basically my 2004 A4 has full time 4wd and was wondering how different a haldex car would feel driving? traction and behaving at the limit etc?

thanks

[Scotty]

I didn't appreciate the difference until I moved from my TT (Haldex) to my S4(Torsen).

It's quite a different feel. In a word it's predictability.

With Torsen it seems to just do what's needed and is very predicatable. Haldex is clever and saves fuel etc but it moves the power around sometimes when you don't want. Also sometimes it's slow to react.

In my opinion you've got the better system although.

p.s. It's also easier to do do-nuts in a Torsen car than a Haldex one.

[Woppum]

Its impossible to do dohnuts with a Haldex system. I was trying in a wet field in my old R32 and it was running a circle as wide as a football pitch!

Disagree about predictability though. I found it very easy to tell how the car was going to react when cornering. Usually under steer, but still a hell of alot of fun!

[kermitfrog]

Haldex Performance Part sharpens up the reaction time on the S3 along with a few choice suspension mods to try and dial out some of the understeer.

Never tried a torsen Quattro unfortunately.

[vier_ringe]

I've only drove torsen system, and this winter(my friend's A4 3.0tdi quattro) i was amazed.Some of the guys(when going to ski,it was ice covered road and snowing) were trying to climb up with their front wheel drive golf, and i saw them pouring the sand.So i stopped with A4 and asked them can i help, and then just put it in first and pull out.I looked at the mirror, they couldn't belive it..

SO as I am waiting for my A3 quattro, also wanted to know from those that have such experience, how does the haldex behave in hard winter cond..

Is there a big difference?

[showtime]

the only downside i've noticed with Torsen quattro is the engine is placed up in between the headlights which makes the car a tad nose heavy & will understeer when pushed!

its not really a problem as you can drive round it & i suppose its safer for most drivers to have a car that understeers a bit rather than going sideways

i've only briefly sampled Haldex type systems & they do have their benefits but isn't the whole point of having a quattro the fact that you get a permanent 4WD car?

[Scotty]

[ QUOTE ]

Its impossible to do dohnuts with a Haldex system. I was trying in a wet field in my old R32 and it was running a circle as wide as a football pitch!

Disagree about predictability though. I found it very easy to tell how the car was going to react when cornering. Usually under steer, but still a hell of alot of fun!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry but I have to disagree on both points.

[1] Here's me doing do-nuts in a 3.2 A3 : HERE

I wouldn't have said it was possible if I hadn't done it

Here's the difference with Torsen : HERE

Incidently the videos were made within 48 hours of each other so I had an excellent opportunity to compare.

[2] I thought the TT was predictable in most situations but depending on how hard you drive and how sensitive you are, the power transfer can be felt and it often does things when you don't want it to. This isn't just my experience. It's been discussed many times on the TT forum. e.g. You can be powering around a roundabout and holding it neatly when suddenly the power will shift from one end to the other and the can upset the car. It doesn't happen often but I can assure you it does happen. I've also heard this from S3 owners.

Torsen doesn't user any computer inputs so there's no decision making taking place. It's purely mechanical and therefore more predictable.

[kite]

I have both an A4 and a TTC

First thing I done was upgraded the haldex controller

to make the TT a bit more predictable.

The TT is fun but i prefer the fultime 4WD of the A4

[S3_Scot]

[ QUOTE ]

[2] I thought the TT was predictable in most situations but depending on how hard you drive and how sensitive you are, the power transfer can be felt and it often does things when you don't want it to. This isn't just my experience. It's been discussed many times on the TT forum. e.g. You can be powering around a roundabout and holding it neatly when suddenly the power will shift from one end to the other and the can upset the car. It doesn't happen often but I can assure you it does happen. I've also heard this from S3 owners

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, it happens occasionally in my S3, but its allways ok. A second of confusion, then fine again. I wouldn't say it's pointless though, the car grips very well in the rain and no wheelspin in the snow.

As said above, suspension mods firm it up nicely. I've never driven a torsen, so I can't compare the two though.

[chasdrury]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Its impossible to do dohnuts with a Haldex system. I was trying in a wet field in my old R32 and it was running a circle as wide as a football pitch!

Disagree about predictability though. I found it very easy to tell how the car was going to react when cornering. Usually under steer, but still a hell of alot of fun!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry but I have to disagree on both points.

[1] Here's me doing do-nuts in a 3.2 A3 : HERE

I wouldn't have said it was possible if I hadn't done it

Here's the difference with Torsen : HERE

Incidently the videos were made within 48 hours of each other so I had an excellent opportunity to compare.

[2] I thought the TT was predictable in most situations but depending on how hard you drive and how sensitive you are, the power transfer can be felt and it often does things when you don't want it to. This isn't just my experience. It's been discussed many times on the TT forum. e.g. You can be powering around a roundabout and holding it neatly when suddenly the power will shift from one end to the other and the can upset the car. It doesn't happen often but I can assure you it does happen. I've also heard this from S3 owners.

Torsen doesn't user any computer inputs so there's no decision making taking place. It's purely mechanical and therefore more predictable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Donuts are possible in an S3 with haldex. i have the bill for a new power steering pump to prove it - no video though!!!

Chaz

[Chris_B]

[ QUOTE ]

I thought the TT was predictable in most situations but depending on how hard you drive and how sensitive you are, the power transfer can be felt

[/ QUOTE ]

Having driven more than a fair share of Quattro cars of both varieties, and having driven a significant number of them close to the limits, I'd agree completely with you on this; the Haldex takes time to figure out what's going on and start transferring torque, so it's easier to make it 'snap' power to the back end and cause unsettled handling, where with a 50/50 Torsen centre diff, you have to do some heavy lift-off or even dab the brakes to induce a snap from understeer to oversteer.

Of course with the new 60/40 Torsen, which can go up to 85/15 in favour of the rear, it's now possible to get a bit of power-on oversteer:

[Scotty]

[ QUOTE ]

where with a 50/50 Torsen centre diff, you have to do some heavy lift-off or even dab the brakes to induce a snap from understeer to oversteer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Torsen (being more predicatable, makes it much easier/safer to play with. Omen666 got an RS6 and I was trying to demonstrate exactly this to him at Castle Combe.

Here's the video : HERE

[AZURES3]

I heard the new S3 has Haldex II or something similar, along with ESP v 8. Not sure but presume the new HALDEX is better/improved. I have safely teased the S3 to behave differently and it does.

I wonder if the new Haldex settinga are documented, many magazines say the S3 has the power split 40:60 but dont believe that.

AZ

[Scotty]

I doubt it. The y main thing about Haldex is it sacves fuel by not engaging the AWD all the time. If it's 40:60 them that would be like having Torsen (to some degree).

I don't know but I seriously doubt it. Perhaps that the max it can distribute?

[Merlot]

[ QUOTE ]

many magazines say the S3 has the power split 40:60 but dont believe that.

AZ

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Its typical crap magazine stuff form people who don't know that Audi have two 4WD systems. They probably couldn't even tell you which way the engine is mounted in different Audis'.

FWIW the 40:60 of the S6 didn't feel much different to the 50:50 standard set up in my cars. Indeed all it probably did was compensate for the weight of the V10 (an outstanding engine BTW).

[Chris_B]

[ QUOTE ]

Here's the video : HERE

[/ QUOTE ]

[Chris_B]

[ QUOTE ]

FWIW the 40:60 of the S6 didn't feel much different to the 50:50 standard set up in my cars. Indeed all it probably did was compensate for the weight of the V10 (an outstanding engine BTW).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to have to have a go in an S6 and see what it's like. A little experimentation (and a little Silverstone time!) in an S8 means I know that it's possible to come into a corner with the engine at about about 4000/5000 rpm in a low enough gear (usually 2nd or 3rd), mash the throttle suddenly and get the back end to step out, even if fairly briefly. It's usually enough just to get the car round a short, sharp corner and then it straightens up on the exit. Great on chicanes (when you have the entry points and apexes coned, a professional driver advising you from the passenger seat, and somebody else's S8 to do it in!).

[Tunbridge]

[ QUOTE ]

Haldex is clever and saves fuel etc but it moves the power around sometimes when you don't want. Also sometimes it's slow to react.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also find it slow to react, the biggest problem is if you try to set off in a hurry. If you forget to switch the ESP off then the ESP cuts the power before the Haldex has shifted the power to the back wheels.

[Scotty]

Agreed. The Shell I use is on a busy dual carriage way and you don't want to hang about when pulling away. I got caught a few times with things bearing down on me because the ESP/traction would kill all the power.

Never had it in my Torsen car.