Snoopy Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 ....Is it just me, but wouldn't putting a diesel engine (no matter how good) in any GTI, destroy the whole iconic VeeDub GTI identity? No imo. Why do i say this, if you look back at when the GTI first came out in the mk1 and remember the thinking of petrol heads back then and what engineering made the GTI different you may understand why im saying this. Low down power, smooth power delivery, non lumpy tickover, no carbs, mpg, reliability, even a non dogleg box, etc etc all were frowned on by the petrol heads of the day and its rivals reflected this. Back to 2008. Now fastforward 20+ years in the future whats has the current GTI today brought to the table thats so different or revolutionary to its rivals. I cannot think of anything that stands out. I can see a future for an option of a petrol or deisel power unit. Say a 209bhp/221bhp twin turbo TDI. As for petrol say a small capacity twin charger or twin turbo petrol unit with a system similar to bmws dynamic efficiency system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazza_g Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 Diesel? Definately NO. Petrolhead all the way. Diesel's for farm vehicles.... Have you driven a recent 'sporting diesel'? It may change your mind, it did me. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if VW did do a full on diesel GTI, there would certainly be plenty of takers and it would have the overtaking grunt to kick the petrol versions rear...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chav Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 As refined as diesels are becoming these days, I still can't bring myself to liking them. They are still far too noisy on cold morning start up and even the quietest models still have that rough growl to the engine. They might have the performance but I hate the restrictive rev range. And then there's the refueling nonsense - stinking pumps and slimy hand grips. I have had to run several diesels in recent years, none of which I have particularly liked. Before I get attacked by the derv heads around here....yes they do offer good economy and make sense for high mileage drivers / company car tax issues. I still can't quite get my head around why people buy diesel convertibles. Having owned a convertible in the past myself, one of the big attractions was the exhaust note and involvement with the car. Surely driving a diesel convertible would be like going on a date with a dyke! I've got a diesel cabriolet. It sounds like a bag of spanners when idling. But when driving it sounds lovely. far nicer than a GTI. big growl at 4K+ rpm. Restrictive rev range is only an issue in a little boys traffic light dash. when overtaking on a country road you dont need to change gear that much...just whoosh right on past. And thats the selling point - in the real world, performance is much better than petrol equivalent. eg 40-70mph overtake. and 450-500 miles from a tank in a 1700kg cabriolet is pretty good too. I was anti diesel until the new ones came out. all diesels are still noticeably not as yummy to listen to as petrol ones, but the torque is lurvely and its a big difference between 300 miles to a tank and 500 miles to a tank. I still spend 600+/month on juice...so i'd be crying in a petrol car! If something like a twin turbo 2.0 litre sooty GTI came out, only a fool would dismiss it. It would anhiliate the current GTI (in the real world) and would give you reasonable economy too. I also dont understand how people with 4-cyl petrol engines can talk about engine note? :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 Have you driven a recent 'sporting diesel'? It may change your mind, it did me. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if VW did do a full on diesel GTI, there would certainly be plenty of takers and it would have the overtaking grunt to kick the petrol versions rear...! Sporting diesel? Is there such a thing? IMO they sound like farm vehicles and they have restricted rev ranges. It's the engine note that really puts me off. Nothing like a 4-pot turbo with Milltek! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazza_g Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 Sporting diesel? Is there such a thing? IMO they sound like farm vehicles and they have restricted rev ranges. It's the engine note that really puts me off. Nothing like a 4-pot turbo with Milltek! you missed the arrival of the sporting diesel? They pull like a train from below 1k revs right round to 5k - probably 500-750 revs less range than a GTI - no huge restriction me thinks ...and If you'd said the engine note wasnt up there with a Ferrari V8 then I'd have agreed - but a 4-pot turbo with/without Miltek... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muppetboy Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 In all fairness my MkV sounds like a bloody diesel at start up, but when you redline her she gives a very satisfying note... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 you missed the arrival of the sporting diesel? They pull like a train from below 1k revs right round to 5k - probably 500-750 revs less range than a GTI - no huge restriction me thinks ...and If you'd said the engine note wasnt up there with a Ferrari V8 then I'd have agreed - but a 4-pot turbo with/without Miltek... Nice to see im not the only one in the world with these views, i was beggining to wonder if i was. lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 Chav - I've been taught that it's always safer to shift to an optimum gear for overtakes and I would not feel comfortable just relying on torque - you may as well drive an automatic. I can appreciate your mpg considerations (I don't have that problem). bazza - Agreed, the engine note simply doesn't compete with a V6/V8/V12 but a Milltek'd GTI sounds as good as any 4-pot can get imo when it's working the revs - I think that is joncowling's point in the context of this forum and thread. As far as a future diesel GTI is concerned, the jury will remain resolutely out until I've test driven and heard one (and Milltek offer an exhaust!!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 ....Anyroadup, if you check out the TSN Stig's latest post on the leaked future Audi's, it doesn't look like VAG are dropping petrol for diesel engines too much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TagnuT Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 you missed the arrival of the sporting diesel? They pull like a train from below 1k revs right round to 5k - probably 500-750 revs less range than a GTI - no huge restriction me thinks ...and If you'd said the engine note wasnt up there with a Ferrari V8 then I'd have agreed - but a 4-pot turbo with/without Miltek... I regulary use a 530d Sport. What an engine that is. Masses of Torque (more than the previous model M5), it just pulls like a train and you get a nice six cylinder growl too. On a trip to Paris over the New Year it averaged 36-37 mpg. A friend has a Volvo XC90 D5, it does less MPG than my Edition 30 and Diesel costs more than V-Power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 ....Anyroadup, if you check out the TSN Stig's latest post on the leaked future Audi's, it doesn't look like VAG are dropping petrol for diesel engines too much! Im guessing the 170bhp 1.4 turbo listed maybe the new twin turbo 1.4 180bhp or it maybe the old twin charger 170 of cause. Theres a few engines not listed on there i know were/are in development. But you may notice a trend in the ones listed only the small Audis have the engine the same way round as 95% of VWs is worth of note when trying to work out a trend. The way the Audi side of the VW group and its brands under that side of the umbrella is pushing TDI in motorsport i don't think it will be too long before you see it coming to the road cars in both SEAT & Audi's especially since they have given in and went over to the common rail TDIs system now. I know the new TT TDI Quattro DSG active suspension one will not be fast enough Robin or practical enough or have the steering feel but it maybe worth trying one to see how VWs TDIs have now advanced in NVH, you may even like the new noise they make under acceleration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chav Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 Chav - I've been taught that it's always safer to shift to an optimum gear for overtakes and I would not feel comfortable just relying on torque Drive a modern 6 cyl diesel and then say that. By the time you've changed gear in the gti (which you need to as there's a lot less torque at 2k rpm), the sooty will already be past the cars that it's overtaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 I just wish VW would get on with the job and sort the mk6 out soon. Im chomping at the bit here. Either that or leak more info to keep me happy for a few more months please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 Drive a modern 6 cyl diesel and then say that. By the time you've changed gear in the gti (which you need to as there's a lot less torque at 2k rpm), the sooty will already be past the cars that it's overtaking. ....Just to make something clear - I'm not trashing modern 6-pot diesels nor saying my car is better than yours etc. My GTI is plotting just over 300 ft lb / 400 Nm (more than standard) and yes there is less torque at around 2k revs where the turbo kicks in, and that's EXACTLY why it's an important principle to select a gear to optimise rpm. The DSG system changes gears faster than any human can and I drive my DSG in Manual mode 95% of the time (even on M'ways) and use the paddle shifters :notworthy:. Your big 6-pot diesel may or may not be quicker overall than my GTI, but that's not the point - Who cares? There's always a faster/slower car on the road. I suggest that I probably have much more fun driving my Mk5 GTI than a big diesel. And if mine is thirstier, it doesn't matter to me - She's worth it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewGolf Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 ....Just to make something clear - I'm not trashing modern 6-pot diesels nor saying my car is better than yours etc. My GTI is plotting just over 300 ft lb / 400 Nm (more than standard) and yes there is less torque at around 2k revs where the turbo kicks in, and that's EXACTLY why it's an important principle to select a gear to optimise rpm. The DSG system changes gears faster than any human can and I drive my DSG in Manual mode 95% of the time (even on M'ways) and use the paddle shifters :notworthy:. Your big 6-pot diesel may or may not be quicker overall than my GTI, but that's not the point - Who cares? There's always a faster/slower car on the road. I suggest that I probably have much more fun driving my Mk5 GTI than a big diesel. And if mine is thirstier, it doesn't matter to me - She's worth it! Fully agree, and bloody well put methinks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ92 Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 Diesel? Definately NO. Petrolhead all the way. Diesel's for farm vehicles......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 ....Just to make something clear - I'm not trashing modern 6-pot diesels nor saying my car is better than yours etc. Couldn't agree more; I think we all mature enough not to go down that route and it just wouldn't be cricket anyway (my modded GTI would cane the a*se off any derv-driven vehicle ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spot Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 [quote name=(my modded GTI would cane the a*se off any derv-driven vehicle )[/quote] Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazza_g Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 Couldn't agree more; I think we all mature enough not to go down that route and it just wouldn't be cricket anyway (my modded GTI would cane the a*se off any derv-driven vehicle ) right, I challenge thee sir to a duel - at dawn no less! I shall use my trusty oil burning steed to vanquish my unleaded foe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarmac_Terrorist Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 If something like a twin turbo 2.0 litre sooty GTI came out, only a fool would dismiss it. It would anhiliate the current GTI (in the real world) and would give you reasonable economy too. I also dont understand how people with 4-cyl petrol engines can talk about engine note? :confused: Hmmm let's compare apples with apples......A twin turbo / twin charger 2.0 litre petrol would probably outperform a twin turbo diesel. I chose a petrol over diesel for my company car and as a result have sacrificerd performance. 15000 miles on, I don't regret my decision. I just can't live with diesels - at least not smaller 4 pot units. Perhaps bigger 6 pots aremuch better but they are well out of my price range. As for engine note I am yet to hear a diesel that doesn't sound like a transit van on cold start up on a cold morning. True enough a 4 pot petrol doesn't sound as nice as a 6 pot for example but it still sounds nicer than a diesel. I'm sorry but anyone claiming their 4 pot diesel sounds nicer / smoother / sweeter needs to listen again. Even when warm and on tickover, Germany's finest still sound like a petrol engine running low on oil. Can anyone tell me what a 4 pot diesel engine sounds like at 6400 rpm? :grin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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