E46 M3 vs Audi S4 B6

[Woppum]

I have owned far too many cars over the last 10 years including the S4 and the M3 (both smg in the CSL and the regular M3), other have including things like 1.9tdi A6 estate, 535d sport touring, 335i and then Audi A2 and Toyota Aygo.

Hand on heart, best all rounder was the standard M3 with SMG 'box and the worst car I have ever owned was the B6 S4 with manual 'box, it just failed in so many ways it was unreal as far as I was concerned, maybe going from the CSL to the S4 was not the smartest choice, but I just kept thinking, for this sort of handling and performance I may as well be back in a BMW Diesel estate, quicker and more fun and a hell of a lot less to run.

The SMG is awesome imho, and I am an auto only man, but it added something really special without all the hassle of dipping a clutch in traffic every 10 seconds, as someone who does 45k miles a year that is important to me.

I would get another S4, but it would be tiptronic and it would be a workhorse, a fast workhorse, but a workhorse and no more. I bought it expecting it to be a sports car, and it certainly aint that!

Guy I remember you did a good write up on here somewhere offering your thoughts on the s4. would probably help this chap?

[DHA]

Owned both (well a b7 S4 but its the same thing).

M3 every day

[gizze]

I'm trying to find it Sam, I can't remember what we were discussing at the time??

Oh Sod it, I will try and write it out again.

I really liked the S cars, I had always wanted one, or preferably an RS car, but had always hankered after one. I had however gone from buying Audis to getting into a 535d and this got me really into BMWs again, and as we all know, we always want more, hanker after the next level. I was looking at getting one of the last E46 M3s, as I couldn't wait for the E92 as I am too impatient. However we had just bought my wife a 120d MSport auto, so I thought sod it and started looking at CSLs. Woppum pointed me to his contact at Romans that had been traded in at a silly price and I jumped on it. Absolutely superb car, completely usable every day and so much more that that as well, had a great summer in it and a pretty good winter, then in Jan I had a run of costs, warranty, insurance bump from £420 to £1200 cause I lost my garage, inspection I and 2 new bumpers (don't ask!!) so that month it cost me around £8000 including tax and fuel!

It wasn't really the car to be doing 45k miles in, so I needed a change.

So I started looking for an RS4 avant, however, an 18 month old 2005, 20k mile, S4 turned up for £21k and I decided that being a mile muncher this would be ideal. I could drive it for 12 months sell it with less than 60k miles on it and nearly get my money back.

So excitedly I gave the guy a deposit and met him 2 days later down in Newbury.

The 180 mile drive back to Norwich was a nice way to do some steady miles and assure myself that even though it was a 4 litre V8 it would still do some OK(ish) MPG figures.

Oh dear!

First Problem.

Gear ratios.

They are all wrong. It is a 4 litre V8, it could be doing 1000rpm at 100mph for christs sake!! But oh no, sitting at a steady 80mph it was doing nearly 3500rpm and doing 18mpg!

Oh well, at least round town it didn't seem to be much worse and I had based my figures on 20mpg average, but I was expecting to see mid 20's on a steady run.

But the other problem with this is round town, the ratios are set up to give it a half decent 0-60mph time, problem is this means you are constantly swapping between first and second gear, and it gets very, very tiring.

In fact in the end I just used 2nd, 4th and 6th gear.

It is actually the final drive, the the manual uses a 3.91 ratio and the auto uses a 3.6 ratio drive, (figures are from memory and this was 4 years ago). The auto will sit at 80mph and is only doing 2500rpm and sees 26mpg, that is a hell of a difference.

So, ignore the above, on the way home it started to sleet, so I decided to take the back roads for the last 20 miles of my journey, they are roads I know well and could take in the CSL/M3 at serious speeds. This was going to really test the Quattro out.

But it didn't.

I could never get into a corner quick enough to feel the benefits of the Quattro system as the car was so front heavy, it understeered before the 4WD was noticed and you had to back off the gas to get it to tuck into the corner. I will be honest and say that when everyone said the engine was in front of the axle I thought it was said as a joke, something the BMW boys said as a wind up, it was driving it home and driving one hard for the first time that I realised they were all deadly serious, I even pulled over in 3ºc sleet to lift the bonnet as was that amazed at how badly it understeered, it hit me that hard that the engine being in front of the front wheels was not a joke.

I changed the rear anti roll bar and that helped, maybe, a little, I think, oh I don't know, it cost me money so I wanted it to, but nothing of much note.

Then there was the feedback from the car, well there wasn't any. You could do the same corners over and over and learn how far the car could be pushed, but it never told you.

I could never get the S4 to go anywhere as quick round bits of roads I know well as I could in the M3, not even the CSL, the regular M3, in the M3 you can feel what is going on and you can use its oversteer, not saying you get the tail out on a public road, but you can feel when it is about to go and always keep it within the limit, in the S4 you never really knew and it would let go in a quite scry way or you would just have terrible understeer.

We used to fight over the keys for the S4 and the 120d, and had a couple of big arguments over being left with the Audi when the other one knew we wanted the 1 series that day, and at that point I knew I had to move it on. I sold it to one of the guys on the M3 forum, he hated it, kept it around 3 weeks and swapped it for a Merc ML, which he swore handled far better than the S4, not sure if that was quite true but does say a lot!

Now, having said all that, I would buy another, but it would be an auto and it would be as a big lazy family wagon with a nice growl (oh, in stock form it sounded ****, I bought the Miltek exhaust for it) and enjoy for what it is.

I would actually really like a new DSG S4 avant, and have just sold a 3.2 Quattro A6 avant, so it hasn't put me off, but I bought it thinking it would be almost like an M3 and it is nothing like an M3, my E Class estate is more like the M3 than the S4 was, and that is genuine.

Hope that helps a little??

[gizze]

One other thing I forgot, pedal heights.

Due to some stupid fukin' American suing Audi in the 80s for rear ending someone because they hit the gas instead of the brake pedal!!

Audi now put their pedals at very different heights from each other, in the case of the S4 this meant the brake is almost 2" higher than the 'gas' pedal.

Now in traffic this meant I got cramp in my right shin all the time.

I saw a few people mention this in reviews but didn't pay any attention to it, but on a couple of occasions I had to pull over on the hard shoulder of the motorway and get out to get rid of the cramp.

I think Audi now put the pedal hinging from the ground and level like everyone else has for the last 25 years??

[Woppum]

Great write up guy. Many on this forum (being Audi based) would probably not agree with you. When I had the r32 I wouldn't either. Trouble is once I tried the BMW I totally understood what weight balance was all about. Makes the world of difference.

Of course I then cocked it all up and got a 911...

[Scotty]

One persons opinion is as valid as another so I certainly won't say Gizze's wrong. He can't be as it's opion.... however .....

It was a manual S4 and he's already commented that he's an auto man. A lot of the negativity in the review seems to surround the manual element rather than the S4. I'm a manual guy and I found it fine. If I can heel and toe it then the pedals can't be so bad. The ratio's are a little strange....unless you live in Germany where you're driving faster than here and want instant power. I found it fine and 18Mpg is just the cost of running a big V8. If you want economy then it's not the right starting point.

Yes the S4 does understeer. I found the RS4 ARB made a significant difference. It certainly didn't make it tail happy but it was much more neutral i.e. four wheel drifts rather than the front washing out.

The main thing with the S4 and most quattros is that you need to drive them differently to RWD cars to get rid of the understeer. If you go too fast into a bend then it will understeer. As commented above "I could never get into a corner quick enough to feel the benefits of the Quattro system as the car was so front heavy". Well it's simply a case of going in too fast. quattro add's benefits on the way out, not on the way in. If you go in at the correct speed where the inside front is hooked up then you can floor it from just before the apex and literally fly out the other side. Many people don't make this adaption to their driving and according to the Stig (the original one that I had dinner with a couple of years ago) this was the mistake Clarkson was making. Stiggy taught him how to drive quattro's and since then his reviews of the S and RS models seem to have been more positive. I know the cars have improved but I believe so has his driving technique.

As with all choices, they're individual and what's right for one isn't right for someone else. My wife, for instance didn't like the 330i because it didn't inspire confidence like the S4. If it was just a fun car for me without needing it to be a family car and not worried about using it all year around then I'd probably go for the more driver focused M3. That wasn't the case so I'm happy that we had the S4.

As always, go drive both and see which you prefer.

[SINGH]

Great write up guy. Many on this forum (being Audi based) would probably not agree with you. When I had the r32 I wouldn't either. Trouble is once I tried the BMW I totally understood what weight balance was all about. Makes the world of difference.

...

That's exactly how I felt, just picking up my BMW, the test drive was around town and then when I picked it up I was on a long motorway, came of and went around a roundabout and Oh my god.

I hadn't experienced steering feel and balance like it, I found this one road that I used to randomly go for a blast down whenever I was bored for fun loads of twists and turns and it was so flat, direct and precise. Ultimate driving machine for sure.

I've been looking at M3s all week on autotrader.

[edo]

I had a manual S4 (B6) and loved it.

OP, have you considered an E39 M5?

[edo]

Munich Legends : 1999 BMW E39 M5

Well respected M specialist too.

1999 BMW E39 M5 (1999)

59,860 miles £11,495

BMW E39 M5

Immaculate BMW M5, E39 model in Silverstone blue with rare black heritage leather interior. This beautiful M5 has well below average mileage, covering just 59,860 miles since the car was first registered in May 1999.

This BMW M5 has been carefully maintained by all four previous owners, and boasts a full service history with extensive accompanying documentation. The car is well known to Munich Legends.

The E39 M5 really is all things to all drivers. Arguably the best of the M5 generations, the E39 can be transformed from a comfortable luxury family saloon to a fire breathing V8 monster with a quick burst of the fly-by-wire throttle. With huge torque, blistering acceleration and genuinely stunning cornering ability, the 400 horse power E39 M5 richly deserves its place in the automotive hall of fame.

The excellent equipment levels on the E39 M5 make driving and living with the car easier than any other car in its class (if such a thing exists). This model specification includes heated electric memory seats, PDC rear, electric rear window blinds, satellite navigation, TV, logic 7 hifi and much more.

[DHA]

A LOT of car for the money there

[Biscuits]

A LOT of car for the money there

Hell of a lot. Starting to look a little dated, but if well maintained I'd have one over an E46 M3 or S4 every time.

The sound they make is glorious!

[NewNiceMrMe]

Munich Legends are probably the most respected independent BMW garage in the UK.

Their cars are prepped to impeccable standards and their service is excellent.

That said I wouldn't agree in respect of taking an E39 M5 over an M3. The E46 M3 is a far superior car in my opinion, but a car for a different purpose too. The E39 M5 is a true motorway cruiser that is also very handy on the bends, but I had a good couple of 'encounters' with E39 M5's in my M3 days and they were no match for the M3 in most circumstances.

[Tipex]

E39 M5 is a fave of mine, timeless looks, it's BMW & M devision at their best, no complicated electronics, just a damn good chassis, and a great engine.

[edo]

The E46 M3 is a far superior car in my opinion

Couldn't agree less ;-)

E46 M3 is also way to common and in the hands of an awful lot of chavs these days who cant really afford to run them.

[NewNiceMrMe]

The same could be said even moreso of E39 M5's because of their price point. I regularly see one on these parts being driven by a 30-something chav who drives like a total loon. I've seen another with the nice pitch black tints and more M badges on it than an M badge shelf in an M badge shop.

These types of cars are unfair to be judged on who drives them and how common they may be - and I was commenting of the technical abilities of the car rather than the sterotypical owners, and in that respect I still think the E46 M3 is the better car.

[neemz]

thank you everyone for their time and opinions. especially to scotty & gizze (are you on the bmw forum by the way?).

there are valid points on all sides of the argument. the m3 is now in a stereotypical sense a chav car as they can be picked up for 10 grand. and the knuckledraggers are in them, but that doesn't bother me. i need to get and drive an s4 as has been said to see if it suits me or not. i am not a good enough driver to formulate advanced opinions on understeering, washing out and things of that ilk. i will know which feels right and make the decision based on those factors.

thanks all.