Am I being harsh?

[NewNiceMrMe]

We're recruiting, two roles but one of them is of critical importance to the business as it is a senior role and is giving me headaches.

The salary is excellent, as are the terms.

It's a design orientated role so you always get a certain degree of 'off the wall' type applicants and you learn to deal with them.

It isn't helped by the fact that the guy that has left us was first class, so good in fact that he was head hunted by a global company to head up their web design services in Central London. Not the type of position I could compete with financially.

I have spent 6 weeks trying to find someone and frankly the word 'disappointment' springs to mind. That's disappointment both in the standard of applications and the attitude many seem to have. The first thing to point out is that no-one that has applied has been on more money than we're offering and most are a good deal less, so I'm comfortable we're not under paying (I knew that anyway, but it's reassuring).

I have just decided to re-advertise the role, despite 60+ applications and after 8 were selected for interview (yes, the rest really were way off) only 2 could even be scratching the 'second interview' itch and even then it'd be the best of a bad bunch.

A chat with a business acquaintance got me thinking but I don't think he's right. He's saying I'm being too harsh (he's in a completely different sector) and that quality of staff out there right now is poor anyway. I don't believe that, I really don't.

Here are examples of some of the comments from people who have been interviewed (so they had what I needed 'on paper', or at least say they do and appear to have the right experience).

Examples (all true)

Firstly, in reply to an email offering an interview and 3 dates and times to choose from (I'm nice like that) - it was signed off "Cheers" and they said they couldn't make any of the dates so "it will have to be the week after that". I withdrew the offer of interview. All the applicants interviewed are in employment in the same sector at present. That restricts interview times, fair enough - but I've offered early mornings or up to 7.30pm evenings, so I think I'm being flexible.

In interview, closing when asking if they had any questions, two applicants chose to ask "What are the working hours and do you every have to work over?" as their first questions. Well as it happens our working hours are a standard 9am to 5pm weekdays and if anyone has had to work over in the last year it might be 10-15 minutes here and there, once in a blue moon - but I think it's simply ludicrous for that to be the first question from someone and it makes me doubt their commitment.

Each candidate selected for interview, if I think they have a degree of talent or sound like it, is asked to complete a draft design for us. To a brief we give them on a sheet of paper, and return it to us within 5 days. At most this would probably take someone 3-5 hours in this field. 6 of the 8 have all umm'd and ahh'd about whether they could get it back to us in time. When the drafts have come back, I feel underwhelmed to say the last. Most appear to be trying to get away with minimum effort in my opinion - and I don't like minimum effort when applying for jobs.

One of the better (possible second interview) applicants totally hacked me off by sending his draft design into us not only with the word "Cheers" signing it off.... but "Cheers mate". I don't mind being called mate - but by job applicants at this stage? I just find it incredibly unprofessional. So I scratched him off on that and that alone (sorry, should also say his design was 6 hours late into us, so that got me in a bad mood too).

In terms of general applications, the number of CV's with errors in them, or where the dates on them don't match up anything like the persons LinkedIn profiles.....well that always worries me so I tend to mark them down on that.

People asking about holidays. Holidays are important, fair enough. But the way we do holidays is very simple. You get 20 days (not a lot, I know) plus statutory dates. Most applicants are getting the same from their current employers. However, we then offer an additional day holiday for every year of service up to 25 days. I think that's fair? Well the two people that get 25 days already have both asked if we could match the holidays - to which I've said no, that's that, no negotiation. It's policy and I'm not changing it. Besides which, in both cases they would be getting 20% salary rises over their current positions. However, both of them seemed disappointed at this - and frankly I don't want to employ them based on that. If they're more interested in holidays in a new job rather than a large rise and the opportunity I think it tells me what I can expect when they've got their feet under the desk.

Then there is the guy who is very talented on the design side but submitted a design that was nothing like the brief he'd been given - because he felt it was "more suitable". I did actually like his design but pointed out we still needed to meet a brief if we had one, so he could submit a second design that matched the brief. I thought that was very fair - but he said he didn't feel like he needed to. So bollocks to him, I scratched him off the list. Initiative is one thing, flair is too, but I just don't get why someone feels they can ignore a brief from a potential employer and then say no when given the chance to rectify that.

So, I'm re-advertising it.

Two of them, having been told this, have sent rather snotty emails. So I'm scratching them off the list now too.

Harsh? Or just protecting my business interests which I see as my primary responsibility!?

p.s. I'll admit, as some will know, I hate, deplore with a passion, utterly loathe, advertising jobs and the process that follows. I've always felt it reveals a lot about society that I'd rather ignore, and it always, always, without fail puts me in a bad mood.

Edited March 16, 2012 by MrMe

[garcon magnifique]

A chat with a business acquaintance got me thinking but I don't think he's right. He's saying I'm being too harsh (he's in a completely different sector) and that quality of staff out there right now is poor anyway. I don't believe that, I really don't.

In my view he's talking bollocks. In fact I think the current economic situation means exactly the opposite - there are genuinely good, talented people out there who have just been unlucky and our now desperate for work. That's partly shown in the number of applications you've had.

There is a flip side to that though - the good people currently in a job may be more inclined to sit tight and see the next year or two through than take the risk of a new position in another (in your case relatively small) company.

Most of the examples you've given I would also reject out of hand.

[NewNiceMrMe]

I would agree and that was my point with him. Lots of people hunting for jobs, many made redundant through no fault of their own = employers choice.

The people staying put is a good point, although in our sector most are employed by similar if not smaller companies. There are very few medium to big sized companies in the sector (ironically one of the applications is from one of the big companies and we'd be offering them a substantial pay rise!). I think the fact one of our staff was head hunted by the type of company he has been is a plus for us too in some ways. It shows we do equip people with the skills (given the commitment and ability) to get noticed, and indeed one of the applications said that was an attraction. The only problem in that particular case was that he was terribly weak in interview.

[Luke]

Re the hours and holiday questions. Some things business owners forget is the difference between owning your own business and being an employee. They want hours/holidays/times all set in stone so they know what's expected of them and how they can plan their life. Most employees quite rightly don't want to work past their contracted time and would want to know that if they were leaving their present job that they wouldn't have to start doing it.

They probably think their present job is ok so even though your offering more money you're offering less holidays, maybe less benefits.

Re the "cheers mate" one of our lads used to call me fella. Now he was a great bloke, worked hard, was dedicated. But after a few "fellas" I just told him that it was the one thing I couldn't stand being called. He stopped, we had a laugh about it and moved on. I think I'd employ someone on their skills first and then refine them to suit their role. If "cheers mate" isn't suitable, just advise him. I personally don't think it would make me decline him if he said that, if his work was good enough for the job.

Employing people is the one thing I not miss now btw. Good luck.

[NewNiceMrMe]

Once they're employed I have no issue with it - but prior to that? That's where I object.

On the holidays, I will be honest on this and say if they're more interested in holidays than the role, opportunity and such-like, then they're not for me. We very rarely work beyond standard hours. But if someone wants 25 days to start instead of 20 days that they build up to 25, then they won't be working for me and that's probably just as well (especially when we're paying a lot more than others, including employers much larger than us).

Thing is, if someone has an appointment, needs to leave an hour or two early, or come in an hour or two late, they'd never be asked to take holidays for it. I don't do that and we've said that to people, so if they're still focused on 5 days more holiday from the outset instead of seeing the role and opportunity, then they're best staying where they are and being unhappy.

You also have to bear in mind that the people coming into our offices are seeing a full size pool table there for all to play on when they want, an air hockey table, a 42" TV on all the time, staff with their own DAB radio's (bought by the company) and so on - so one thing I realllllly take exception to is if I get the feeling someone who hasn't joined us yet thinks they should be getting more...

Edited March 16, 2012 by MrMe

[billy2shots]

Devils advocates.

Yeah your being a bit harsh. You give people 3 choices of date and time? Pick up the phone and agree a date and time man.

People asking about working times. Is that a big shock? Maybe they have commitments and need to be somewhere shortly after work like looking after their kids whilst partner goes to work.

Poor effort on a task you have asked them to do. You already said some are working in the industry all ready and have offered them late night interviews. Yet you give them a task to do which takes 5 hours on top of any work they have from their current job and want it submitted a few days later. Is their no way you can see examples of previous work, a portfolio or something?

I stopped reading after that.

Cheers mate.

[garcon magnifique]

If I was going to an interview in a design role I'd be taking my portfolio with me, whether they asked me to or not. If they don't want to see what I can do, I don't want their job.

[Luke]

I stopped reading after that.

Why????

[billy2shots]

Why????

Reading on my phone prior to an interview lol. Sorry didn't mean it to come across like that. What I meant was I didn't have time to read past that.

[xaddiction]

I'd like to apply...

However I'd like 30 days a year holiday plus the second Monday of every month off. 120k a year should see me right. I'd like a company car too, nothing too flash, maybe a Bentley or something similar. Can I have an office all to myself? I'll need a PA too.

Oh and I'd like to finish early on a Friday...

Ta pal.

[NewNiceMrMe]

Devils advocates.

Yeah your being a bit harsh. You give people 3 choices of date and time? Pick up the phone and agree a date and time man.

Completely disagree. I have given them 3 dates and times for interview and I don't see how it is at all unreasonable for someone to find or adapt to one of those if they are interested in a job opportunity. If they're not, fine. Most companies would simply offer a single time and date, fact.

People asking about working times. Is that a big shock? Maybe they have commitments and need to be somewhere shortly after work like looking after their kids whilst partner goes to work.

As their first question after interview? Personally I'd expect somebody applying for what is a senior role to have a slightly better first question lined up.

Poor effort on a task you have asked them to do. You already said some are working in the industry all ready and have offered them late night interviews. Yet you give them a task to do which takes 5 hours on top of any work they have from their current job and want it submitted a few days later. Is their no way you can see examples of previous work, a portfolio or something?

Anybody can say something is their work. Many a company has been caught out in this way. It is pretty standard practice that they'd expect to be given a brief Billy. It's not an unusual request. Seeing how someone interprets a brief is critical and the only true test of their credentials is to ask them to produce a draft. I don't see a problem with asking. I'd have been more than happy to devote my time to impressing a potential employer to get a job in my day. Isn't that standard - it's called effort, surely?

I stopped reading after that.

Yes, I think there were a few big words after that.

[NewNiceMrMe]

If I was going to an interview in a design role I'd be taking my portfolio with me, whether they asked me to or not. If they don't want to see what I can do, I don't want their job.

Indeed.

Spot on in fact. Yet only 3 out of 8 interviewed did!

It still leaves you with the test of their true design abilities though. You'd be surprised (or maybe not) how many claim something is all their work when they have perhaps only had a small part in the design process. The brief kills that.

p.s. one of those that did bring a portfolio in, when questioned because I spotted something I'd seen before, admitted the design he claimed was his (30 seconds before I asked) was in fact a collaborative production and that he'd only produced about 10% of what was on the page.

Edited March 16, 2012 by MrMe

[billy2shots]

Completely disagree. I have given them 3 dates and times for interview and I don't see how it is at all unreasonable for someone to find or adapt to one of those if they are interested in a job opportunity. If they're not, fine. Most companies would simply offer a single time and date, fact.

As their first question after interview? Personally I'd expect somebody applying for what is a senior role to have a slightly better first question lined up.

Anybody can say something is their work. Many a company has been caught out in this way. It is pretty standard practice that they'd expect to be given a brief Billy. It's not an unusual request. Seeing how someone interprets a brief is critical and the only true test of their credentials is to ask them to produce a draft. I don't see a problem with asking. I'd have been more than happy to devote my time to impressing a potential employer to get a job in my day. Isn't that standard - it's called effort, surely?

Yes, I think there were a few big words after that.

That's fair enough then, we all run our businesses differently and you have outlined what you do and why (not sure why you started this thread now).

As I said earlier I didn't mean to sound rude but welcome back MrMe.......

[cruiser647]

I'd say you were being fair on most things.

3 dates for interview! Wow! And late ones at that!!

Which means it's open for those who work late or get in late etc etc.

Anybody who thinks they are worth their weight would take in examples of work they'd completed. In an interview, you need to boast and show off! You only get a 60 or so minutes! Don't waste it by describing - show it!!

If you want the job, you'd do the homework.

[Calm Chris]

Have you accepted that in absolutely any new Company there's still a 25% shaping factor. Ideal employees seldom exist, do the SWOT thing and decide if any of the criteria can be changed from must have to he can pick that up (in weeks).

Maybe the firm list of requisites could be relaxed?

Could you offer the job as an internal promotion and replace the promoted persons position, more easily?

[Mac]

It's an employer's market right now, which bizarrely makes the recruitment process harder and longer - I want the best people in my group.

Completely disagree. I have given them 3 dates and times for interview and I don't see how it is at all unreasonable for someone to find or adapt to one of those if they are interested in a job opportunity. If they're not, fine. Most companies would simply offer a single time and date, fact.

It's also how they do it isn't it? I normally give interview slots and ask them the arrange accordingly. Some people come back with blah, can't make it etc. etc. in which case the answer is mostly tough. Some people are more constructive. 'Really interested in the role, but unfortunately due to prior commitments...blah blah.... how can we make this happen?'. I.e. a bit more proactive and showing active interest. I'm OK with that - flexible thinking is a big plus when recruiting, more important than some key skills in some respects.

Anybody can say something is their work. Many a company has been caught out in this way. It is pretty standard practice that they'd expect to be given a brief Billy. It's not an unusual request. Seeing how someone interprets a brief is critical and the only true test of their credentials is to ask them to produce a draft. I don't see a problem with asking. I'd have been more than happy to devote my time to impressing a potential employer to get a job in my day. Isn't that standard - it's called effort, surely?

While I don't work in anything like a creative area, I do understand what you mean here. I go to town on people in technical interviews - even that part can take a couple of hours. Mainly because I absolutely want the best people, and I want to know what they know, what they can do, how they handle pressure etc. It's all part of it isn't it?

I've little tolerance for poor interaction with the whole interviewing process. Poor grammar, wall of text CVs, long CVs - they make it harder and more effort for me to select so inevitably they end up in the bin.

[NewNiceMrMe]

(not sure why you started this thread now).

I started it because I value the opinion of most and I simply wanted to see if those I trust the judgement of felt I was missing something.

[NewNiceMrMe]

Have you accepted that in absolutely any new Company there's still a 25% shaping factor. Ideal employees seldom exist, do the SWOT thing and decide if any of the criteria can be changed from must have to he can pick that up (in weeks).

Maybe the firm list of requisites could be relaxed?

Could you offer the job as an internal promotion and replace the promoted persons position, more easily?

I think they're good points Chri5. There are elements, small elements, that I could 'adapt', but not many. The thing is, there are already elements of what the outgoing member did that I wouldn't expect the incumbant to do for a good while, so in many ways I've already factored that in. I agree that ideal employees rarely exist at interview - but they can be cultivated once in. I'm looking for someone with that potential, but the problem I have is I'm not even seeing the seeds of that or I'm being left with major doubts by those that initially show promise.

Internal promotion isn't possible on the design side. We have one lead designer, not multiple.

[NewNiceMrMe]

It's an employer's market right now, which bizarrely makes the recruitment process harder and longer - I want the best people in my group.

Absolutely.

I've watched countless companies go bust around us and I don't want us to join them, so the calibre of staff is vital and what can seem like a very precise requirement is my way of trying to secure our future - and the jobs of staff.

It's also how they do it isn't it? I normally give interview slots and ask them the arrange accordingly. Some people come back with blah, can't make it etc. etc. in which case the answer is mostly tough. Some people are more constructive. 'Really interested in the role, but unfortunately due to prior commitments...blah blah.... how can we make this happen?'. I.e. a bit more proactive and showing active interest. I'm OK with that - flexible thinking is a big plus when recruiting, more important than some key skills in some respects.

You've said it - it's how they do it. One of them seemed to think I should be making more attempts at re-arranging my diary, despite already having offered 3 dates/times and then early mornings or late evenings. Having done that I wasn't going to agree to his request (partly because of how it was written) of "Can do Saturday, how about you?". I think I'd been more than flexible enough by that point. Proactivity is key too, as you say. It should be noted as well this is with at least 5-7 days notice. I wasn't giving them dates and times with just 3-4 days notice (and I've been given a days notice in the past and just made it happen, which for me is what you do!).

While I don't work in anything like a creative area, I do understand what you mean here. I go to town on people in technical interviews - even that part can take a couple of hours. Mainly because I absolutely want the best people, and I want to know what they know, what they can do, how they handle pressure etc. It's all part of it isn't it?

Interestingly, the designer who left thought I was giving them too much time - and I think he was right. We might often be in a position where a brief received today needs a draft design by tomorrow, and if he'd been on a days holiday he pointed out he'd have still produced it the next morning. He was right. I think re-advertising the role is the right decision after reading most of these comments.

The grammar side of things is really silly. I'm not asking for submissions for literary prizes, just to find "their" isn't spelled "thier" or that "Photoshop" isn't produced by "Adboe". Things like that.

Edited March 16, 2012 by MrMe

[Mac]

Ok grammer/language etc. probably isn't that important in your area but the premium consultant type people I often need spend most of their lives writing stuff for end clients. It's massively important. You pay 2k a day for somebody who doesn't know the difference between your/you're etc. and the 'value' of their work is massively damaged.

EDITed for crap grammar :D

[NewNiceMrMe]

Oh it does matter - because they ultimately end up in a lot of communication with clients directly in this particular role. Diplomacy is another under-valued skill in design. There are certain ways of telling a client their ideas are 's-hit' and one of them isn't by communicating the word 's-hit' directly to them.

[Luke]

It's all coming back to me now Chris.

'maybe we could that a different way?'

'in our experience this would be better suited'

Code for s-hit customer ideas?

[shao_khan]

I've been goign through the flip side of this recently and I must admit I find it quite hard in the gettign interviews, despite my experience, etc.

I'm normally ok with the slots offered liek Mac mentioned, only ever once had to decline this because I was in America, I took a call at silly oclock and the company took the 'tough' stance despite me appologising for being on another continent and beign unable to make their slot offered.

In context though I think Mrme is beign pretty fair, most of what he is describing I'm seeing, I'm one of the prepared ones, I don't use cheers in formal responses and my cv and linkedin profiles match.

Recently got this rejection following a 2.5hr interview - "Technically the best candidate for the job out of the 25 seen, clearly knows the process and people requirements inside out, we just didn't feel he was 'red' enough to lead the team as they needed a lot of tough management", now they werent interested in re-inteviewing or anything to assess my management style, but deemed I was not tough enough in dealing with peopel!!!!!

So I hate the job hunting stuff as well

[NewNiceMrMe]

It's all coming back to me now Chris.

'maybe we could that a different way?'

'in our experience this would be better suited'

Code for s-hit customer ideas?

We were very diplomatic.

[Waylander]

Are you being harsh based on your examples?

Possibly a little - but I don't doubt I would be as well with those examples especially when it should technically be an employers' market.

I agree had someone asked to discuss possible other interview dates due to prior commitments but they were really interested etc I would look at that differently to "can you make it for my convenience instead" type approach.

I have to admit I don't really have a problem with asking for clarification of working conditions especially asking you to match the 25days at their current job: it may be those 5 days are more precious to them than a modest rise in salary and they were good enough....

Casualness in interview and application manner drives me mental as well (Cheers mate).