cruiser647 Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Stick to it Chris. If you are going for a new job, you EXPECT to have lots of things change. When I left Synstar and moved to the company I'm with now, my job conditions changed a lot. I lost my Fuelcard (wow!!), car allowance. BUT, I got more salary, bonus scheme and other differences. Live with the changes if you really want to move job. Think of the whole package and not just the holidays/cash/bonus/felxibility. As a side note, I wanted to change jobs, but in this current climate I am staying put as you do not know how secure the next firm is. I know my current firm is chuffing secure and will pay out good redundancy cash if they decide to lose people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted March 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Again, I think you're a little confused - you're giving statutory minimum, not 'national average'.And that is why many candidates will overlook the role - statutory minimum and 'senior role' aren't often mentioned in the same advert! Okay, I get your viewpoint. Understood. Now, perhaps you'd like to find those facts I asked for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 So what's the holiday entitlement like Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinspark Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Okay, I get your viewpoint. Understood. Now, perhaps you'd like to find those facts I asked for? Which facts are those, then? My assertion that 20+8 isn't a common entitlement for a relatively senior role? - well, my evidence is that it's the statutory minimum. I've read back through the thread and can't see what else you'd be asking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted March 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) You asserted, in fact said, that the holiday entitlement was in the dark ages - when it is in fact the national average. I think you've got those special blinkers on. 20+8 is a common entitlement in any role in a small business, from MD down. It isn't at all unusual. However, you also keep ignoring the fact I've said only 2 people raised it, out of 60+ applicants, and that it would be highly unusual for large organisation staff to apply for roles as they're very different in skills set in our sector where it is specialised instead of simply an internal designer role in another sector (for example, lots of large companies employ web designers for their own sites - but they're a very different kettle of fish to what I class as those at the sharp end who design websites for hundreds of different companies). There have also been a lot of posts in here from people saying they don't see what is unusual about 20+8 and the same policy we adopt of increasing to 25 days with a day added for every completed year of service. My point being - you're reiterating the same point when it is very diluted by an awful lot of factors. We'll not agree, but thanks for the input anyway. My opinion remains that I will be missing out on very, very few staff indeed because of this policy - regardless of their current employers. Edited March 17, 2012 by MrMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted March 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 So what's the holiday entitlement like Chris 120 days a year. Plus, on the days when you are in, I don't expect you to do anything. Anything else I can give you? Silk lined chair to relax in after the hard work of drinking your morning coffee perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser647 Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Can I have Lobster Thermidor instead of a McSh1tty Muffin for breakfast? Cheers geezer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted March 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Only one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldavo69 Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Having worked in recruitment I would avoid going to an agency at all costs. They are a bunch of underhand liars who will do anything to place a candidate or at least get them an interview regardless of calibre. Plus, they charge ridiculous fees for basically doing an hour or twos work. MrMe - Have you thought of getting an external person to sit in on the interviews with you? Maybe somebody from MrsMe's HR dept or similar. I've done a lot of interview work looking at both sides of the table and I think you may be in danger of focussing too narrowly whereas somebody with less/no industry experience but more general recruitment experience will provide a very different viewpoint on your candidates. Think about it, somebody who knows nothing about your industry won't be concentrating on whether the technical claims add up but will be looking at the person and their overall qualities, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted March 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) Someone does sit in on first interviews with me.... However, that's because we protect ourselves from those fecking interview professionals who try to scam you by claiming there was no formal marking techniques or assessments in place. It's good and keeps me sane too. Oh and it stops me saying things I shouldn't when they can tell I am desperate to... They have been as unimpressed as I have, they work in a HR consultants role and their clients include PLC organisations. Whilst they didn't comment on the 'holiday' item that so many have focussed on, even they were astonished that the first questions of any applicant would be what the workings hours are. As they said "Ask it second, maybe third, but don't make it the first question you have for a prospective employer!". Edited March 17, 2012 by MrMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldavo69 Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 You're fecked then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveP Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 I work in IT. Only company I know who gives 20 days holiday pays about +20% above the BEST in the area. 20 days is....archaic in my opinion (bear in mind that I am a contractor, so I have to forgo my pay when taking holidays - I am NOT a permie). flexible - I would class your hours as rigid, not flexible. For years I have worked with companies who have worked on a flexi basis (eg I get into work around 7am and have been know to be there at 7pm). I don't give a damn about pool - if I am in work, I am there to work. 6hrs of work on a draft proposal? For an interview? Extreme! I am not sure whether I would flatly refuse, probably. maybe only desperate people would apply? (A friend, contractor, was once asked to come up with a design during the interview, he strongly felt that they were just trying to rip off his ideas). Your example of web salary just reminds me why I am shocked people actually go into that area of development! Devils advocate - seeing as most people in IT have limited people's skills (myself included...) maybe the "easy" question of travel/holidays is their way of starting a conversation. I have put the points above very bluntly, but if knew all the above then I wouldn't even bother replying to your ad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted March 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) I'm guessing that when you mention 'example of web salary' you didn't read the fact that the outgoing 26 year old was earning 50% more than the advertised salary because he'd merited further rewards over a 2 year period? We don't do flexi-hours. It's a client-led business and it's not feasible. In some businesses it is, in ours it isn't. You're not forced to play pool... Your friend sounds like a tosser or incredibly cynical. Personal choice of course, but if I was asked to come up with a design in an interview (if I was in the hunt for that type of role) I'd not consider it at all unusual. I'm baffled as to why anyone would and I have already said that all (99%) applicants are prepared for it anyway - they know they'll be asked. I completely refute your claim that most people in IT have limited people skills. Maybe those from the last 80's or 90's do, but certainly not most of those I come across in this day and age. Time has moved on. I don't see much correlation at all between vocation and communication skills these days. There are poor communicators in all sectors. Besides, if they have to find an 'easy' way of starting a conversation by asking about holidays....then they're not for us. Thankfully, you'd not be considered... Edited March 17, 2012 by MrMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveP Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 I'm guessing that when you mention 'example of web salary' you didn't read the fact that the outgoing 26 year old was earning 50% more than the advertised salary because he'd merited further rewards over a 2 year period?Fair enough, I had missed that. But it does mean, for the right person, you are willing to pay a lot more.We don't do flexi-hours. It's a client-led business and it's not feasible. In some businesses it is, in ours it isn't. Don't understand. All your workers always deal with clients up to 5pm?Obviously works for you, but appears to be me to be rigid.Your friend sounds like a tosser or incredibly cynical. Harsh retort. Tosser because he felt he was being used? Personally I have never experienced anything like that, but I have no reason to doubt him. I am cynical, but he doesn't come across as such.I completely refute your claim that most people in IT have limited people skills. Maybe those from the last 80's or 90's do, but certainly not most of those I come across in this day and age. Time has moved on. I don't see much correlation at all between vocation and communication skills these days. There are poor communicators in all sectors. Besides, if they have to find an 'easy' way of starting a conversation by asking about holidays....then they're not for us.Thankfully, you'd not be considered...Well, I know one company who thought it was confirmation of the quality of their Linux guru that HR wanted to reject him!I guess what I was trying to get across and have obviously failed, is that headline information that may cause (good quality candidates) to apply for your position my cause them to not apply. Holidays (lowest that I have heard of in IT), pay (yes, you mention that what you are offering is above market rate, but you also state that your current employee has warranted +50%, but surely you are trying to replace him with an advert offering -50%), inflexible working hours. Maybe those headlines cause the "right" person to not even considering applying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopsta Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 I'll back mrMe up here about his hours, an assumption has been made about the role and you've classed it as in-flexible, not all web dev roles are the same and this one appears to be client facing so needs to cover the core hours as that what his clients expect. Our company allows a flexi start from 08:30-09:30 for our non support staff, whom have split shift rota to cover clients. You may say big wow, but it gives the staff the option and they can arrange appointments to suit without impacting too much on the working day. Personally speaking I think what Chris is offering is fine, and he'll find someone. Recruiting is a funny thing at times, you just seem to get dross/idiots and then 3 or 4 potentials pop up at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted March 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 yes, you mention that what you are offering is above market rate, but you also state that your current employee has warranted +50%, but surely you are trying to replace him with an advert offering -50% The problem here is that it's a long thread and I understand people aren't going to read every post. However, I have already explained the above. I am not replacing the role like for like. The outgoing employee had many more responsibilities, built over time, than the incoming will have. They also earned the 50% rises through merit and damned hard work - i.e. their contribution to our success. I would be an idiot to immediately offer the same salary to someone coming in before they've provided their skills, talent and commitment. The person will be doing what the outgoing person did when they arrived. Then, as they show me what they can do and how good they are at it, they'll get increases. I think most sensible employers would adopt the same approach. As Hopsta says, you can only offer flexible working when it's right for the company. Employee benefits are one thing, but to the detriment of the company is pointless - because then people end up out of jobs. One thing you learn when running a small business, especially having been an employee in a very large corporate for a long time, is that the end result of the vacancy has to suit both employee and employer. I'm trying to do just that. Paying the margin above the highest salary of competitors that I am is my sign of our value of quality, and something has to give in a small business to be able to do that. I've decided, from experience of clients and our industry, that we get the best from higher salaries and lesser holidays - so I would be a fool to change that. p.s. I've had two very encouraging CV's drop in my mailbox yesterday that I've read this morning. Certainly much more promising than anything else I've had to date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser647 Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 but surely you are trying to replace him with an advert offering -50%)[/b], inflexible working hours. Maybe those headlines cause the "right" person to not even considering applying? Show me a company that replaces someone and gives them the same money in this climate? Besides, it shows how the new recruit can earn more if he does well. Incentive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveP Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 Seeing as everybody I know in my industry is employed then I don't think your statement can be applied universally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stooH Posted March 20, 2012 Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 I work in a small business (12 people) and I get 25 + 8 per year, it also appears i'm reading this thread in works time. I've already put my CV in the bin for you Chris. Just to back up TwinSpark for a moment his point was valid, 20+8 is the statutory minimum therefore I would be absolutely astonished if the national average was 20+8, I know we're moving on from the holiday argument so i'll keep quiet now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Particularly enjoying this comment: I am a highly motivated individual who works well either on my own or as part of a team with excellent communication skills. ....but we only have teams with rubbish communications skills. Oh noes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon magnifique Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Next!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m4ttm4son Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Well, they know how to use copy and paste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted March 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Three very promising applications out of another 26 received. Looking much brighter now anyway. Interestingly, the 3 most promising are all from rival companies, one in the NE, two in the NW locating to relocate. Initial contact has shown no problems with the holidays as it's what they get at the moment anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopsta Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Good luck MrMe, I've taken on my interviewee today, starts in a couple of weeks Now I can get on and do some proper work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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