m4ttm4son Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 I'll be hard pressed to match the tactile nature of my modified GTI with a new unmodified car unless I consider cars like the R8! Everyone knows that even an unmodified GTi is faster than an R8! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted January 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Everyone knows that even an unmodified GTi is faster than an R8! I absolutely knew as I was writing that someone would then post such a comment! You responded very quickly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m4ttm4son Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 I absolutely knew as I was writing that someone would then post such a comment! You responded very quickly I'm glad I didn't disappoint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashleywater Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 ....We may not agree about Cheryl Cole but we certainly seem to agree wholeheartedly with each other about the RS3 etc. Very very interesting to learn your views about back-to-back (the ideal test driving) comparisons of the S3 with the Golf R. It of course comes down to individual preferences and mine is without question for a performance car which feels tactile and so the Golf R would be my choice over a S3 but I'd hope the RS3 would trump both. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Apart from a Milltek to enjoy that 5-cyl exhaust music, I don't think I'd want or need to modify a RS3. My concern over the RS3 is its added weight, the evil in any performance vehicle, which IMO could have been avoided with a three door manual option, and this car represents a commercial decision not a performance one, we should have had the option............I know I am flogging this point to death, but I guess that is down to waiting so long, and being thoroughly dissapointed with the outcome, I genuinely hope this car turns out to prove me wrong............. In relation to the R this really is an underated car, and put a stage 3 VWR conversion on it, and boy would you have some hot hatch, I have driven the RS Feckus over a weekend, and I think the R is quicker everywhere, bar top end, add in a far more comfortable package and extreme stealth,and I have become more and more impressed with the R as it has loosened up and settled down suspension wise...........very go kart and extremely responsive, with plenty of punch and a half decent sound track, the only real attraction for me, is the five pot in the RS3, which is an awesome drive in a TTRS.......so good I am still tempted to shell out for a TTRS.........as a driving experience the car is dam good, just not the most practical,as I just do not like the five door A3 in any guise, just does not look right, and the addition of roof bars is a must to bring any sort of styling to this car, which I note are present on the Autocar pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted January 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 My concern over the RS3 is its added weight, the evil in any performance vehicle, which IMO could have been avoided with a three door manual option, and this car represents a commercial decision not a performance one, we should have had the option............I know I am flogging this point to death, but I guess that is down to waiting so long, and being thoroughly dissapointed with the outcome, I genuinely hope this car turns out to prove me wrong.............In relation to the R this really is an underated car, and put a stage 3 VWR conversion on it, and boy would you have some hot hatch, I have driven the RS Feckus over a weekend, and I think the R is quicker everywhere, bar top end, add in a far more comfortable package and extreme stealth,and I have become more and more impressed with the R as it has loosened up and settled down suspension wise...........very go kart and extremely responsive, with plenty of punch and a half decent sound track, the only real attraction for me, is the five pot in the RS3, which is an awesome drive in a TTRS.......so good I am still tempted to shell out for a TTRS.........as a driving experience the car is dam good, just not the most practical,as I just do not like the five door A3 in any guise, just does not look right, and the addition of roof bars is a must to bring any sort of styling to this car, which I note are present on the Autocar pictures. ....So are you telling me that if I got a RS3 I'd have to replace lots of body panels with carbonfibre ones Although I personally prefer the Sportback I agree that it's a shame that Audi haven't offered the 3-dr option. I don't understand the roof rails - In case you roll it? It's definitely the RS engine which attracts me the most. The way you're talking about your Golf R methinks you might rather like my modified Mk5 GTI - Not quite as fast as the Golf R but oh so very tactile. Not confirmed yet but planning to be at VWR definitely this month - Gotta talk to Matt after the Racing Car show. Am thinking you'd like a drive of mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuprabob Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 In relation to the R this really is an underated car, and put a stage 3 VWR conversion on it, and boy would you have some hot hatch, I have driven the RS Feckus over a weekend, and I think the R is quicker everywhere, bar top end, add in a far more comfortable package and extreme stealth,and I have become more and more impressed with the R as it has loosened up and settled down suspension wise...........very go kart and extremely responsive, with plenty of punch and a half decent sound track, the only real attraction for me, is the five pot in the RS3, which is an awesome drive in a TTRS.......so good I am still tempted to shell out for a TTRS.........as a driving experience the car is dam good, just not the most practical,as I just do not like the five door A3 in any guise, just does not look right, and the addition of roof bars is a must to bring any sort of styling to this car, which I note are present on the Autocar pictures. Coincidentally, I've just taken a phone call from my saleswoman friend at my local VW dealer saying they the guy who bought their highly specced Rising Blue DSG Golf R demonstrator has just traded it back in and whether I'm interested. Be rude not to go and have a look and a little drive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP27 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Sound ideal - happy hunting !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 fair enough - I'm just naturally cynical about Autocar "exclusives"... Oh I totally agree that Autopoo are hardly the last bastion of honesty in such things! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Gareth I cannot comment on where you are sourcing this "Information" but I will quote a few of relevant comments on the latest update on the RS3 as of this afternoon courtesy of the Audi internal system:All "Audi UK Centres" will be allocated one Demo Car per centre and one showroom vehicle per group by Audi UK......... there are approx 120 centres in the UK Also add as previoulsy posted press and marketing vehicles. There are no updates or actual quoted dates on delivery of any cars Demo or otherwise as of today, only information currently available is that Delivery dates will not be available until March 21st at the earliest, and deliveries will not commence until "Summer" at the earliest...........This is followed by "Customers should be made fully aware of this , as there expectations should be managed to suit................pretty self explanatory As for there only being a limited production of 500 units for the UK, and this being in actual "written documentary form" unless one is referring to the actual Audi internal system, where this figure is noted, as my matey in Audi commented is absolute "B*ll*x I do not engage in posting heresay, gossip or otherwise, just forwarding on information that I have physically viewed on the Audi internal system, for the benefit of anyone considering pulling the trigger on this particular car I have the full copy of the Audi desktop launch information here in my office. I can quote one line from that here that is the correct information on the allocations for the RS3; "A quota of one showroom/demo vehicle per Centre will be available. There will be a maximum of one demonstrator per market area and the remainder must be showroom vehicles" Note the use of the word "available", not allocated as you said. The sentence regarding the 500 unit allocation; "There will be limited production of just 500 RS 3 Sportbacks for the UK from the start of production in 2011 to end of production in 2012" But clearly your informed "Audi matey" knows best and this is, his words, "total boll0x" - so in fact what your post does then present (despite your own comment that "I do not engage in posting heresay, gossip or otherwise") is just that...a piece of quoted hearsay to contradict what Audi UK have put into writing at this point in time to all their franchise holders.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 ....Vorsprung durch Technik = Advancement through TechnologyI don't yet understand the frontal wide tyres thing - There are plenty of heavily modified performance S3's running around with equal width tyres all round, even if they are all wider than standard in some cases, and they don't have handling problems. I don't rely on any car magazine scribbles for assessing if I want a particular car. Even if I like a car and write about it, I don't expect everyone else to agree with me. {pedant mode "on"} It's actually "Progress Through Technology" {pedant mode "off"} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted January 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 {pedant mode "on"}It's actually "Progress Through Technology" {pedant mode "off"} Thanks for educating me on that - I much prefer to get things right . Guess where I got the translation I posted... From an online newspaper article about Audi's long court case about the term's use. Bloody journalists! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted January 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Oh I totally agree that Autopoo are hardly the last bastion of honesty in such things! ....Just like the vast majority of journalists, politicians, estate agents, car salesmen, the list goes on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashleywater Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 I have the full copy of the Audi desktop launch information here in my office.I can quote one line from that here that is the correct information on the allocations for the RS3; "A quota of one showroom/demo vehicle per Centre will be available. There will be a maximum of one demonstrator per market area and the remainder must be showroom vehicles" Note the use of the word "available", not allocated as you said. The sentence regarding the 500 unit allocation; "There will be limited production of just 500 RS 3 Sportbacks for the UK from the start of production in 2011 to end of production in 2012" But clearly your informed "Audi matey" knows best and this is, his words, "total boll0x" - so in fact what your post does then present (despite your own comment that "I do not engage in posting heresay, gossip or otherwise") is just that...a piece of quoted hearsay to contradict what Audi UK have put into writing at this point in time to all their franchise holders.... IF you actually read my post, it states the 500 figure noted on the Audi web site, but this I am sorry does not constitute your apparent classification as "in writing" which confers a total different meaning to something posted up on a website Tell you what, rather than engage in petty "Semantics" I will get a copy of the actual document tomorrow and post it up, "verbatim" my posts were made from memory after viewing the latest update from Audi, you seem only to address specific elements of my post, please feel free to expand on where else I am wrong? other than the odd word, elements such as when demo cars are due to arrive etc on which you seem to have more information than I, as I believe you posted up Demo cars in July and customer cars shortly after, as there are no bulletins or actual solid information as far as anybody in Audi are aware on this,then please post up where you got your information from? I am sure anyone who has put there hard earned down on one, would appreciate some solid legitimate info on when they might actually see there cars In regards to my Audi matey, he owns the largest group in my area which sells Merc Audi and VW (Car & Commercial) with a turnover of in excess of £300 million, so when he actually tells me it is Total B*ll*x that they will be only producing 500 RS3, then I would sort of tend to believe him, and would not consider his views as heresay gossip or otherwise, he took over the business from his father and sort of tends to know what he is talking about in this area, and if you believe that Audi are actually going to limit this car to 500 units for the UK and have placed an order on that basis,or are a Franchisee I can only suggest you sue when number 501 lands on UK shores, you should have an open and shut "Bona Fide" case based on the Audi internal release statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tipex Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 ....Just like the vast majority of journalists, politicians, estate agents, car salesmen, the list goes on! There are thieves, criminals and crooks, in every chosen profession, be it bin men to lawyers, shop assistants to IT technicians, tree hugging hippies to corporate suits, the professions you mention are no better or worse in that respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashleywater Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 There are thieves, criminals and crooks, in every chosen profession, be it bin men to lawyers, shop assistants to IT technicians, tree hugging hippies to corporate suits, the professions you mention are no better or worse in that respect. Sounds like a cue for a new thread.............which is the "Bentest" profession.............Corporate suits, I will ignore them as they are in a "League" of there own, lets call it the "Premiership of Curve" all others are basically "Conference" in contrast Lawyers get my vote........followed very closely by "Tree Huggers"......this I consider to be a fairly safe selection on the basis that neither will be members of our Tsn fraternity............hopefully...........do not fancy getting sued on the basis of an internet post............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 IF you actually read my post, it states the 500 figure noted on the Audi web site, but this I am sorry does not constitute your apparent classification as "in writing" which confers a total different meaning to something posted up on a websiteTell you what, rather than engage in petty "Semantics" I will get a copy of the actual document tomorrow and post it up, "verbatim" my posts were made from memory after viewing the latest update from Audi, you seem only to address specific elements of my post, please feel free to expand on where else I am wrong? other than the odd word, elements such as when demo cars are due to arrive etc on which you seem to have more information than I, as I believe you posted up Demo cars in July and customer cars shortly after, as there are no bulletins or actual solid information as far as anybody in Audi are aware on this,then please post up where you got your information from? I am sure anyone who has put there hard earned down on one, would appreciate some solid legitimate info on when they might actually see there cars In regards to my Audi matey, he owns the largest group in my area which sells Merc Audi and VW (Car & Commercial) with a turnover of in excess of £300 million, so when he actually tells me it is Total B*ll*x that they will be only producing 500 RS3, then I would sort of tend to believe him, and would not consider his views as heresay gossip or otherwise, he took over the business from his father and sort of tends to know what he is talking about in this area, and if you believe that Audi are actually going to limit this car to 500 units for the UK and have placed an order on that basis,or are a Franchisee I can only suggest you sue when number 501 lands on UK shores, you should have an open and shut "Bona Fide" case based on the Audi internal release statement. Here you go; RS 3 Sportback - UK quota is 500 units There will be limited production of just 500 RS 3 Sportbacks for the UK from the start of production in 2011 to end of production in 2012. As a result, demand for this fantastic new addition to the Audi range is likely to exceed supply. Here is more information on launch car availability and details of the open for ordering process. Centre showroom/demonstrator orders RS 3 will open for Centre Market Introduction ordering on Wednesday 21 December and close on Tuesday 4 January. A quota of one showroom/demo vehicle per Centre will be available. There will be a maximum of one demonstrator per market area and the remainder must be showroom vehicles. Orders must be SLI order type 05 Demo or 06 Showroom. The specification of these vehicles is free, but if an order has not been placed by the deadline (4 January) then a vehicle will be ordered on your behalf in agreement with your Area Sales Manager. Centres will not be permitted to sell their Market Introduction vehicles to customers until they are three months old. The launch is planned for Summer 2011, further details are to be confirmed. Price and specification guide An electronic price and specification guide will be available to download from Desktop and from audi.co.uk on Wednesday 22 December to enable you to specify and order your RS 3 market introduction car. Open for customer orders Limited quota will be available in SLI for customer orders from Thursday 6 January 2011. Cars will be allocated by the RS team as per the usual process. Customers who placed the earliest deposit or interest in the car via [email protected] will take delivery of the first vehicles. It will not be possible to provide customers with confirmation of build weeks until March 2011 at the earliest. It is crucial that Centres inform customers of this in order to manage their expectations when placing an order. Deliveries of customer RS 3s will begin in Summer 2011. More specific timescales cannot be given at this time. Timings Open for Centre showroom/demo orders 22 December 2010 to 4 January 2011 Limited quota for Centre customer orders Thursday 6 January 2011 Confirmation of build weeks from March 2011 RS 3 premiere at Geneva motor show Calendar week 09 2011 Centre launch and first Customer deliveries Summer 2011 All I'm saying at this point in time there are 500 units scheduled for the UK market but as I've already said this might change, but these are the facts now. Even if this does increase, 500 units for the UK market (considering customer/press/demo/showroom cars) is nothing in reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted January 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) Re: Ashley versus Gareth.... Either way, the posted info is much appreciated and informative Edited January 13, 2011 by RedRobin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted January 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 There are thieves, criminals and crooks, in every chosen profession, be it bin men to lawyers, shop assistants to IT technicians, tree hugging hippies to corporate suits, the professions you mention are no better or worse in that respect. ....You're right of course. I was more describing how certain professions are percieved by the general public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashleywater Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Here you go;RS 3 Sportback - UK quota is 500 units There will be limited production of just 500 RS 3 Sportbacks for the UK from the start of production in 2011 to end of production in 2012. As a result, demand for this fantastic new addition to the Audi range is likely to exceed supply. Here is more information on launch car availability and details of the open for ordering process. Centre showroom/demonstrator orders RS 3 will open for Centre Market Introduction ordering on Wednesday 21 December and close on Tuesday 4 January. A quota of one showroom/demo vehicle per Centre will be available. There will be a maximum of one demonstrator per market area and the remainder must be showroom vehicles. Orders must be SLI order type 05 Demo or 06 Showroom. The specification of these vehicles is free, but if an order has not been placed by the deadline (4 January) then a vehicle will be ordered on your behalf in agreement with your Area Sales Manager. Centres will not be permitted to sell their Market Introduction vehicles to customers until they are three months old. The launch is planned for Summer 2011, further details are to be confirmed. Price and specification guide An electronic price and specification guide will be available to download from Desktop and from audi.co.uk on Wednesday 22 December to enable you to specify and order your RS 3 market introduction car. Open for customer orders Limited quota will be available in SLI for customer orders from Thursday 6 January 2011. Cars will be allocated by the RS team as per the usual process. Customers who placed the earliest deposit or interest in the car via [email protected] will take delivery of the first vehicles. It will not be possible to provide customers with confirmation of build weeks until March 2011 at the earliest. It is crucial that Centres inform customers of this in order to manage their expectations when placing an order. Deliveries of customer RS 3s will begin in Summer 2011. More specific timescales cannot be given at this time. Timings Open for Centre showroom/demo orders 22 December 2010 to 4 January 2011 Limited quota for Centre customer orders Thursday 6 January 2011 Confirmation of build weeks from March 2011 RS 3 premiere at Geneva motor show Calendar week 09 2011 Centre launch and first Customer deliveries Summer 2011 All I'm saying at this point in time there are 500 units scheduled for the UK market but as I've already said this might change, but these are the facts now. Even if this does increase, 500 units for the UK market (considering customer/press/demo/showroom cars) is nothing in reality. All which confirms everything I have posted on this car so far, as for these being the facts now, this release has been on the system pre xmas, as you can see from my post on the 22nd December, it also notes a "Summer" launch which is officially recognised as being anytime from the 21st June to the 21st of September, and makes absolutley no reference to an actual "Centre Launch" Demo cars and subsequent customer deliveries, which you have actually posted previously as being July? The only current change from this release was that Customer orders did not actually go live until 10th January, not the 6th as noted in this release,also posted somewhere in this thread You will also note that if the dealer does not order a demo vehicle, Audi UK will order one on there behalf, I believe your initial post was based on challenging my opinion that 500 units only for the UK, was a load of tosh based on what I was saying in relation to the realities of the dealer allocation Demo Press cars etc added to actual customer orders, and unless I have interpreted your last post incorrectly, you are now agreeing that in all probability there will actually be more than 500 cars produced and delivered to the UK market. My only reason for posting up this info was to assist anyone interested in buying this particular vehicle by passing on actual information sourced direct from Audi UK, as if I was planning to spend £40K plus on a vehicle of a "supposedly" limited production run, then I would certainly be keen to get any factual information on when I could reasonably expect to see my car, and whether this was in reality a limited production vehicle, which obvioulsy affects its desirability and ultimately its resale value, thus my previous reference to the RS Feckus (A Genuine Limited Production vehicle) being up for sale at £15K over Retail, a vehicle which the majority of genuine Ford buyers were prevented from purchasing at Retail Price, by some unsavoury practices by certain dealers and groups (You know who you are "BiroFirebreathers") even my own local Fraud dealer no names no pack drill, was guilty of this...... Oh yes in conclusion my name was down on the ROI in November with Dealer Deposit at the same time, cant be more precise than that as the R8 team might "Rumble" me, but should be driving my nice new Suzuka Grey fully loaded RS3 (Diso****ed) away in? Feck knows when!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashleywater Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Re: Ashley versus Gareth.... Either way, the posted info is much appreciated and informative Thanks Red,but no thanks, as I am sure you are aware, I leave all possible confrontational situations to MrMe (Aka Tsn legend) he is soooo much better at it than me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashleywater Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Slightly off thread I know, but while I remember latest generation computer generated showroom Audi Configurator,which is actually quite good, excludes current A3 model, which would sort of indicate the new A3 is not to far away, and must be the best kept secret in Automotive history, as not a squeak anywhere on when it might appear, other than as previoulsy posted current model A3 three door production is to cease...........making way for new A3 production...........this obvioulsy affects when new MK7 golf appears.........anybody have any info on new A3?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m4ttm4son Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 I don't really believe that AUDI would limit production to 500, then insist that all dealers have one as a demo. If you're having demos, then you're trying very hard to sell a limited run of cars, which makes no sense. Coupled with then limiting the number of new orders down to 350 in real terms if there are 150 dealers is just absurd. It means that the dealer is running a demo in order to sell three cars. How much profit does a dealer make from selling one of these vs how much depreciation does a car suffer from being a demo? Bonkers if true. IMO there won't be a limit to 500 if so many demos are about. If you're limiting production to 500, they will sell on their own to Fan boys willing to buy based on the badge and reputation/ word of mouth. How many demos did Ford have for the RS500? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 I don't really believe that AUDI would limit production to 500, then insist that all dealers have one as a demo. If you're having demos, then you're trying very hard to sell a limited run of cars, which makes no sense. Coupled with then limiting the number of new orders down to 350 in real terms if there are 150 dealers is just absurd. It means that the dealer is running a demo in order to sell three cars. How much profit does a dealer make from selling one of these vs how much depreciation does a car suffer from being a demo?Bonkers if true. IMO there won't be a limit to 500 if so many demos are about. If you're limiting production to 500, they will sell on their own to Fan boys willing to buy based on the badge and reputation/ word of mouth. How many demos did Ford have for the RS500? No one is saying that Audi are limiting production but at this point in time the allocation is limited to the stated 500 cars for the UK market. Audi UK have always launched cars in a similar fashion i.e. each dealer or dealer group needs to have an active demo car and a showroom car that cannot be sold for 3 months. These are then used as cars to sell others from. The RS3 is a full margin car for Audi UK dealers so they will gross the full margin for each new unit sold. Additionally any demo car is very likely to be sold for near on list too - so again retaining nearly full margin. Also lots of dealers out of the network won't take any allocation as they don't have any order bank for the car in question. Then if they need a car later they can request it from within group or from Audi UK - doesn't mean they'll get it but they can ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 You will also note that if the dealer does not order a demo vehicle, Audi UK will order one on there behalf, I believe your initial post was based on challenging my opinion that 500 units only for the UK, was a load of tosh based on what I was saying in relation to the realities of the dealer allocation Demo Press cars etc added to actual customer orders, and unless I have interpreted your last post incorrectly, you are now agreeing that in all probability there will actually be more than 500 cars produced and delivered to the UK market. Mate Suspect it is more of case of us both splitting hairs here to be honest.... The fact is that as this point in time Audi UK have allocated 500 units for the UK market. Further to that there is (as there always is with any limited allocation/production car) that another market may over perform compared to it's competing one and as result the allocations are switched into the stronger market. That's the law of supply and demand of course. Given the likely allocation of demo/press/show and customer cars the number of 500 will be taken very quickly (even at the price of £40k++) as it's a very small number for the UK market. Then at that point Audi UK will know how other markets have reacted and may allocate more cars to the UK. Therefore anyone who orders the RS3 on the sole promise/premise/hope it will only have 500 units for the UK as their main buying criteria stands to be disappointed in all eventuality - but then that is not the sole reason to buy such a car in the first place. However even if the final UK number ended up being double that it really won't seriously dent the desirabilty of the car or it's future residual value. Therefore I do still agree there is a chance to say the allocation will be more than 500 units but do think it's a little premature/churlish for someone to say that the 500 unit allocation is "boll0x" - even if that is from an Audi DP with several sites under his/her control. For what it is worth I think it's going to be a storming little car and will be very sought after both new and used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mook Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 Boys can you just play nicely please. Gareth disagrees with Ashley. Ashley disagrees with Gareth. Ta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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