Give the boy a slap

[Calm Chris]

I've 2 kids, as they grown we've always give them freedom,

The 13 y.o. girl is very smart, but increasingly prone to chav attitude, language and behaviour. Despite this she is a grade A student, top report amongst 200 peers, 3 gifts of excellence at the last school year end ceremony.

The boy is 17 y.o. with aspirations to read English at Uni, is a Camden mosh pit cowboy, and is like most a "x-box, net, msn" child. He got poor results in his mocks- straight D's, so is under some pressure this year to knuckle down.

Now brother and sister haven't been getting on and this has led to some instances of swearing, pushing each other and general pushing out of toys from prams.

A few weeks ago he strangled her and I had to use a police thumb grip to control him.

Naturally since then his like of me has cooled. He has had a few hissy fits and hates his dad and sister.

So this morning it all kicks off again. As a lad trained to fight (he's a karate black belt) he shouldn't be physical with any family member.

I came out the shower due to the shouts and screams. The wife (who is instructor level, Dan 2) is between the kids and struggling to separate them, he had his arm round the girls throat and she's wide eyed.

So I've grabbed him and he's tried to give me a dig. I nearly lost it and reacted, there was a wrestle and I end up with him face down on the ground and in control (which must have look funny because I was in my birthday suit).

When I let him go he squared up to me and I gestured for him to start, he didn't react and I told him that I'd be up for it anytime he wanted it. He was shocked- he has never seen me in violent and angry mode.

So off they go to school with the promise of a house pow wow tonight to discuss and (hopefully) resolve the aghast.

Choices:-

• Arrange for the boy to move in with another family for a while
  
• Set rules and rigidly stick by them
  
• Be the physically dominating force and make sure he understands I will react to any physical bullying with a harsh reaction
  
• Ask him to leave home
  
• 3rd party counselling
  

There's also punishment due for the violent behaviour to consider.

It's gone beyond the normal no internet access, hiding the xbox paddles or extra work duties actions.

Although the painted picture might seem bad to you, he is a good lad.

He keeps sensible mates, has girlfriends, is popular and until recently has always been gentle, kind and loving.

He doesn't drink, doesn't take pills, smoke or do puff.

I love them both to bits, but this really cannot continue to happen. So it's harsh love time............

[Dave]

I had a similar fall out with my dad some 25 years ago. In the end i did move out, but saying that we get on better now than we ever had done.

Me and my dad are very similar.. very competative and I suppose you could relate it to nature in that there comes a time when the junior tries to take on the status quo.

i think you do need to be the domianting force here.. be cruel to be kind almost. Whilst he lives under your roof, he needs to live by your rules. This is what my father said to me all those years ago, and it rings true still, however much i disliked it at the time.

When i did martial arts when i was kid we were always told not to be the agressor.. I don't see any reason why they would change that.. he should know better.. and of course if he is attacking his sister then the fact that she is female is a no no in my book.

Harsh love is right.. it's not always the bed of roses that we all wish it was.

[Calm Chris]

Thanks for that Dave, I'm aware that father and son doesn't always work out.

At the back of my mind is the relationship (or lack of) that I had with my dad. I left home just before my 18th and never returned, other than for the odd dinner.

What I'm trying to avoid is a similar trench between me and mine to what I had with my dad.

He is a much younger 17 than I was, as in not very self contained, doesn't (and never has) had any work and can't cook, clean, wash and simply couldn't survive independently.

I'm tempted to go get his Uni cash, put it in a envelope and tell him he either tows the line or walks off with a cushion of cash that will keep him in rent and food for a year or so. Thing being that Mum would consider such actions as my fault (isn't it always) and would be devastated if he called the bluff and packed his bags.

At first it all seemed as if he was simply going through a "Kevin and Perry" phase, but the lack of respect, the physical actions, the swearing, the hate all suggest that under the skin he is not a very happy person.

The Mrs and I have talked, and talked about it. She's non confrontational and has always simply felt it was a phase and he'd grow out of it.

[Mollox]

I don't know what the answer but I think all ( or most of us ) eventually come full-circle from thinking our parents are mad/100% wrong/unreasonable/whatever to eventually agreeing completely with them and ending up like them.

All can think is trying to fill in some of the context that he'll inevitably pick up in the next 10 years to change his opinion.

Perhaps focus on the aggression towards his sister as being the utterly unacceptable part, thus making it less about you and him? Hopefully that will logically follow on.

Money in an envelope will drive a bigger wedge in my mind, he'll spunk it in less than a year and be back and then your relationship will be about money and not much else?

[Dave]

I agree with Mol to some extent.

Fighting fire with fire never works.. you'll wind each other up and end up having a huge fight, in which either someone will get hurt or he will leave.

I would try and go along with the mediation between him and your daughter.. (is she completly innocent in all of this?).. that way you can try and save the relationship.

If it has gone beyond that then things really do get tough, and time away maybe the answer. I know it wasn't until I moved out that i realised how damn hard life can be. At 17 you think you are ready to take on the world but in fact , as we all know, you still have a lot to learn.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Dave

[Andrew]

Damn Chris, a tricky one.

I've had a fight with my dad in the past, nothing serious but I came back the following day to have a sincere chat with him. I was a bit older (23) and there was a bit of booze involved but you might find that your son has calmed down and is rational and open minded to what you have to say.

Seems very extreme to be strangling to this level though so it strikes me there must be some sort of catalyst somewhere.

I'm not a parent but perhaps some one-to-one chat first followed by the round the table affair might bring out anything that doesn't want to be said infront of another party. Perhaps your wife, who nobody should mess with from the sound of it, should chat to your son though. I'd convey how upset having to get like that made you too.

Anyway, just my 2p.

[scooby_simon]

My Tuppence.....

Approach the "violence outside the karate club" first...

He's behaving unreasonable in a number of areas; most of which are in the "Family". Leave the family to last.

Talk to him about how is teachers / masters at karate would feel about him using his art in this way at home. Discuss with him if that is right for a Black belt to do; remind him about the need for control at his level of karate. IF you can get him to understand that his behavior in using his karate is unreasonable you have made him see some of problems. This one may be the easiest to fis as he does not look up to uoi, but his coaches etc; if he can admit that this was wrong, you can then chip in with, "well you agree that you should not use your karate in that way as it is un-reasonable, what do you think about the other things you have done?".

The karate might be the best place to start as it is not rules you ahve imposed, but those of the art; if he can be reasonable about that; other things may follow.

[Calm Chris]

Thanks again for the feed back.

Family will all be locked in tonight for a chat about it all- Fireworks will be inside the house, outside ones are cancelled.

Time to sit down and air all the grievances, issues, problems and sift through those to attempt to find a root cause for the bad feelings causing this cloud of mayhem.

It will be made perfectly clear that physical attacks won't be tolerated and that such behaviour will be forcefully reacted to.

The girl is not an angel and she will / may have provoked him, although the issue is as much about him not turning the other cheek to any provocation. Verbal between family does not warrant physical abuse and being a bit old school my feelings are that I may have to give him a hiding if it happens again.

Harsh- yes it is, he has the choice- tow the line, be respectful or suffer the consequences.

I've also arranged for him to move in with some close, local friends for a few weeks. That will be my weapon of last resort if it kicks off later. I can't have this chaos continuing, and I won't take anything other than full remorse for his recent behaviour.

We've tried love, kindness, sympathy, communication and support and that's been spat back at us. So no more easy, relaxed "it's just a phase" attitude from me.

Now to get the wife to back me up........... Mothers and son's are yet another complex part of the life jigsaw.

[Calm Chris]

Simon- I see where your coming from, but he gave up the sport about a year ago.

At the time stating it was more important to study which seemed admirable, and then went on to show more interest in xbox live than any study requirements.

We as a family tend to believe motivation is something inside your core, not something parents can force on a child. Disappointingly his motivational levels towards study, karate and club level swimming have all melted in to the ether.

I do think that some separate space for a few weeks might just be the jolt he needs.

As a maturing youth he needs to have a clear understanding that life isn't all roses, that effort and contribution is mandatory to have any worth and self belief, taking him out of the family home might be the eye opener required and help act as a catalyst for him accepting responsibility.

[Dave]

Does he have any interests outside of the home..

rugby worked for me.. I made some great friends, got rid of my agression, and had a few pints ona saturday night. I'm not saying that you should cart him off to the local RFU,

but maybe if he some other interests he might be a happier person.

[Sponge]

Simon- I see where your coming from, but he gave up the sport about a year ago.

At the time stating it was more important to study which seemed admirable, and then went on to show more interest in xbox live than any study requirements.

Might it be an idea to suggest he take it up again?

I know studying is important, but you also need time away from it, somewhere to release the pressure. With a history of martial arts, maybe he should go back and hopefully the instructors could restore some discipline - at least in that area.

This might be a bitter pill, but if counselling, etc, don't work and the violence continues, then you may have to consider involving the Police? I don't know if that would work as a warning, or just make matters worse.

It would seem logical that something acted as a catalyst in all this. Do you think he's lashing out at or about anything - His studies not going well? Feeling out of control? You/mum? His sister doing well (seemingly with little effort "chavvy attitude") and him not?

I remember being moody, quiet, dis-interested, easy to anger, as I was going through puberty. Afterwards I learnt my parents were worried I may have been 'taking drugs'. I wasn't, it was just puberty and things got better as I got older.

He is a much younger 17 than I was, as in not very self contained, doesn't (and never has) had any work and can't cook, clean, wash and simply couldn't survive independently.

Maybe one of the things you could do (I feel you may have to tackle this issue from many fronts) is to ask him to start doing stuff, 'in preparation for him leaving home and going to Uni'?

Good luck.

Edited November 7, 2009 by Sponge

[pontyslapper]

Further to what Sponge has said about the Police. Have you got any mates who are coppers or who know any coppers?

Maybe a quiet word off the record with regard to possible consequences should his sister have a guts full and dial 999?

It also maybe worth getting somebody who knows both kids but who is outside the immediate family, a close neighbour maybe, to have a chat with both son and daughter at different times in order to try and get some kind of background into why this is happening.

I admire the fact you are trying the family pow wow, but chances are it'll end up in a slanging match - which is why I suggested the above.

I hope for everyone's sake this gets resolved quickly before anyone gets 'really' hurt either emotionally or physically!

[Mort]

It is possible this is an attention seeking routine and an effort to assert himself as an adult. The violence (if serious) is worrying so it might be an idea to be quite firm on that whilst getting to the real root cause of why he seems to think that is appropriate for settling his grievances . Beware the police route could land him in jail with a criminal record (and you wont want that)....

If there is one thing that carries the most currency with kids (I have 2) , its spending one to one time with them on some activity they enjoy. Just Dad and son. It doesn't have to be contrived.... (get 2 tickets for a footy game then take him for a pint later, hill walking, fishing, do a track day with him or something associated with what he likes). The point is he gets your undivided and exclusive attention and you get some of that 1-2-1 male bonding thing going on..... find opportunities to praise him and show him you love him. Likewise, show him how much his behavior upsets you and his mum. Anything you say on the subject of behavior will carry far more weight during or after such an activity.

Another point I suggest is to work with him to set a long term goal. How keen is he on going to Uni ? Is a gap year activity an option ? If he really wants to go, can you set him up to visit and experience some of student life so he can glimpse some of the good things about the independent life of being a student.... give him something to go for. Going to Uni will be the making of him I am sure....but he can't see it at the moment... Find a way to give him the target to aim at.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Mort

[theduisbergkid]

Chri5 - an unhappy story there, I don't have any advice to offer, other than don't go burning any bridges. Do you know why he kicked off with his sister ? What is the situation like now ?

Good luck, it can't be easy there.

[Mollox]

How did the conversation go chris?

[Calm Chris]

As a family we have spent some serious time discussing the problems.

His argument was that she attacked him, the daughter did own up but said it was because he'd bad mouthed her.

Directly before the physical stuff he had remarked that she was becoming a gangster girl and would end up on her back taking it from all the boys.

This then led on to why he'd say such a thing. He and his sister were very, very close and as a result of attending the same school and her pubescent growth he believes she is turning in to a 'wrong un' and that justified his actions !

So back to basics. It's not his place to police his sister.

I asked him if given his behaviour and he was the father, how would he react ? He accepted that his actions were wrong.

He then spent an hour going over issues in his life.

As parents we don't support him enough Yet for the last 3 years he has asked us to stop interfering and allow him to chose exam subjects and have control of his own fate.

We never ask him to get involved Although since time began he has always been asked to help chose holidays, family days out, decide on social activities etc

We never teach him So all those times we've tried to show him life skills like cooking food, using tools, fixing things and he's rejected the offers because Xbox is more fun.

This went on for 48 hours of open and frank conversation- me being the bad guy (as always) and the wife being somewhere in the middle.

When I told him that my knee jerk reaction was to ship him off to another house for a few weeks / semi permanently he was ashen and visibly shocked.

It was then than he seemed to finally understand that even though we love him his behaviour is unacceptable and it can't continue.

Somewhere amongst all this he also mentioned the pressure he was under due to wanting to achieve top grades and go to Uni.

Each statement he made had many debating points, but really were unacceptable as excuses or reasons for his recent attitude. I think he realised what a little git he'd been and could see that neither the wife or I were going to accept that the attitude was wholly due to his excuses.

So he is staying put, he knows now what the consequence will be should he become violent again.

We spent a pleasant Saturday, dad and son making somethings out of wood. He enjoyed the jigsaw, drill sanding and finishing. Sunday he got up and made the tea (1st time he's been up before 11am on a Sunday this year!).

So it sort of sounds like he's turned a new leaf, but I'm not holding my breath- time will tell.

In the mean time he has decided to return to the swimming club. I've agreed to pay for driving lessons for every school post card he gets (the school issues them for outstanding work, 100% attendance etc). He's had 3 since September and more will hopefully follow.

As for the future he now understands the lines of acceptable / non acceptable and we can only hope that he doesn't fall off the rails and that fate is something he controls.

From Mum's point of view it was a tear ridden event, but we are on the 'same page' regarding the lad. More support, more effort regarding communication and involvement as a family.

There's no miricle in resolving family issues. I can only hope that he understands that we love him dearly and that although he might consider himself to be grown up, that at 17 he has only just started to travel on the path towards adulthood.

A path that was bumpy for many of us, and it's just as likely that it will be for him.

We have all agreed to have family chat nights a few times a week to air feelings and to simply chat and offer advice, support and debate.

Funny thing really, because a few years back we accepted his right (at the time hotly contested) to be individual and responsible for his own decisions- that's now gone full circle.

Someone once mentioned that you shouldn't consider your kids as 'friends', we always have- maybe we shouldn't have done.

[Mook]

Glad you've got as far as you have Chris.

Parents are always wrong in the eyes of teenagers - that's a fact of life.

11am starts are completely normal for any teenager.

All I would say is that, even when you want to flip your lid, try and support him as much as you can.

Best of luck keeping the peace

[bfc1912]

Chris

Wish I'd seen this earlier but looks as though things are working out for the best. Have to admit that I've never really had any problems with my parents or brother/sisters but my younger brother had a streak similar to what you've described. Things worked themselves out and although he's still like a bear with a sore head when he's tired, age has matured him to recognise this.

It was great that you asked him what was wrong, so many people judge and try to work out their own reasoning on things without asking those involved properly.

The best solution I find to solving any problem whether it's work, life, why the TV doesn't work seems to be to ask the thing causing it why (a little difficult with the TV I know). Then importantly when they've given an answer ask why to that. So many people actually give an answer that isn't really the truth or is just part of it. Then ask them why again and keep asking why till you seem to have found the answer.

I know it sounds a bit strange but people put a sticking plaster approach on things instead of really getting to the source of a problem. The plaster approach solves nothing as the problem is still there under the surface and will rear it's head in different ways or again when the plaster falls off.

[Mook]

I know it sounds a bit strange but people put a sticking plaster approach on things instead of really getting to the source of a problem. The plaster approach solves nothing as the problem is still there under the surface and will rear it's head in different ways or again when the plaster falls off.

There's a bunch of muppets in Westminster who've been doing that for a while.

[bfc1912]

There's a bunch of muppets in Westminster who've been doing that for a while.

The solution is to put them in a circular room and tell them to fill out their expenses in the corner!

[garcon magnifique]

I'm a bit late to this, and will happily admit that not being a parent myself makes it all the harder to understand fully what you're going through.

A couple of things spring to mind though. The family chat seemed to work - at least for now. Without making a deal of it, I'd try to use the 'friend' approach a little more to coax him into letting you know how he feels about stuff and show him you can talk it over man to man (experienced to naive).

Whatever age we are, we all need an outlet, and his ideal one might be to go back into MA training. It might help a little more on the mental control aspect of behaviour as well as giving him someone to (try and) kick the sh*t out of once a week in a controlled environment.

Finally, do NOT be afraid to seek outside, professional help if it all kicks off again. You might be amazed how many families do take that option.

Difficult times the teenage years - can't say I envy you or any parents!

[cruiser647]

Hi Chri5,

I've been reading this, and wondered if you have said anything to your daughter about her actions at all? As to why your son thinks the things he does about her.

[Waylander]

I was wondering that as well