J_C Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 [ QUOTE ] Is it just the image thing with BMWs for most of you?? [/ QUOTE ] Personally no, as I don't care much for the whole 'image' thing - not in any context. I believe that people are way too image conscious in the UK these days. I would never discount a particular car or car brand just because of its image (or lack of), and would prefer to judge them on their own merits. Whilst I don't subscribe to the whole 'arrogant BMW driver' negative image thing, it has to be said that often they don't do themselves any favours and do little to discourage this perception. Of course, this could also be said of a number of other brands to be fair and there are an awful lot of BMWs on the roads these days which probably exacerbates the situation. [ QUOTE ] That I do totally understand, and if it is that is fine, but slagging off the drive for lack of AWD I just don't get? [/ QUOTE ] I don't recall ever having done so, so I guess it's a generalised question(?). I perfectly understand the attraction of RWD and why it's favoured by many, and yes, going around corners sideways can be fun but not for everyone all of the time. Like most quattro enthusiasts I simply prefer the blend of qualities that that approach offers. We all know that there are a lot of excellent FWD performance cars available too nowadays, so it is not all as cut and dried in favour of RWD as it once was IMO. [ QUOTE ] I would be interested in how many of these cars everyone has owned? I will only slag a car off that I have onwed, and lived with, I can't knock something that I haven't had any experience off. Personally I hate the Subarus, EVO's etc. etc. but that is based purely on the pre conceived image I have built up about them, so I would never say that the BMW is a better a drive as I just don't know?? [/ QUOTE ] I will freely admit that I have never owned a BMW, but my father is in the motor trade and I have driven (extensively in some cases) many different models in the past. There are also one or two in my works' pool car fleet. Back in 2004 I spent the best part of a week extensively driving a 330Ci Cabriolet, and yes it was a very fine machine indeed - but just not for me. I enjoyed my time with the car and sure enough it was great to drive, but it certainly wasn't the 'Road To Damascus' experience that some BMW fanatics are all too fond of proclaiming. From what I keep reading and hearing, it would seem that when it comes to comparisons between cars like the M3 and the RS4, the ultimate differences in their driving dynamics only become apparent (or indeed meaningful/relevant) when the cars are pushed very close to their theoretical limits in the hands of very, very skilled drivers. I do not count myself as such a driver - and I bet that 99% of the buyers of these cars aren't either. [ QUOTE ] So is it just a case of not liking the overall image?? [/ QUOTE ] Not at all (for me anyway). If Audi did not exist I would more than likely be in a BMW. Yes, I do find them a little bit 'ostentatious' but I could live with that. Personally it boils down to other criteria, namely those such as fit and finish, attention to detail, quality of build and materials and interior ergonomics and quality. Naturally, some of these are seldom mentioned in many discussions such as this, what with this being a 'performance car community' etc., but they are just as relevant as performance considerations IMO. It is in these areas where Audi are at the top of the game, and whilst BMW are quite close there is a marked gap and I firmly believe that they are not put together quite as well as Audis are. I'm not taking anything away from them - as they are undoubtedly better than most - but this view is shared by quite a few people I know, some of whom have owned cars from both marques. On another (non brand-specific) forum there is quite an interesting thread comparing the new A5 Coupé to the E92 Coupé, and in it there is one memorable quote from someone who had been to Geneva to see the cars up close for himself. He said "I would never consider an E92 as long as BMW continue to disregard the importance of quality interiors." Whilst I think he is being a bit harsh - the 1 and 5 Series interiors in particular are noticeably improved - I do agree that he has a point, having been to Geneva and done the same comparison myself. When I bought my S4 I was obviously in a position to buy a similarly priced E46 M3, but discounted it for several reasons - mainly on the grounds that the interior finish, materials and quality are not on a par with those of the B6/7. There is just not the same 'hewn from solid' feeling, that 'thunk' when you close the doors. Irrelevant to some maybe, but not to me. I haven't driven one - and one could be forgiven for dismissing my argument purely on that admission alone - but I've been out in one as a passenger and on that basis I have no doubt that it is a superbly focused piece of engineering, but so too is the S4 - even if it appeals on slightly different levels. As has been discussed many times before, both on here and elsewhere, I believe it is the better all-rounder. Finally, and I know this is a very subjective area, but with the exception of the E92 I find the styling of the latest crop of BMWs quite challenging, grotesquely so in some cases, and I just cannot get on with that dual-binnacle style dashboard. Someone asked further up the thread if this debate was going on on other forums. Yes it is, and the diversity of opinion seems to be broadly similar to that on here. I think the argument will probably run and run through subsequent generations and long after we are all six feet under! I doubt it will ever end, but one thing's for sure - and I bet we could all agree on it - all this competition between rival marques can only mean good news for the consumer (i.e. us lot), and ultimately that can't be bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sufu Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 [ QUOTE ] That white one is a photshop. [/ QUOTE ] I must be some kind of uber-nerd, it's three in the morning and I'm staring at that RS4 trying to figure out whats wrong... The wheels are photoshopped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizze Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 Mark and John, thanks for the replies. It is nice to get some feedback other than "You can't dirve an M3 when it's raining..." or ".....never be seen in an M3 as you look a cock...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitas3 Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 Off Topic - Guy, Snetterton have a cheap few hours trackday session on Monday evening - just ideal for you to explore the new car I'd have thought. I'd go but I'm near Kenilworth tues. I'm considering Brands on wed afternoon though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizze Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 Snowboarding Monday evening. Do they do that every week Simon?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser647 Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 For me, (having owned neither a BMW nor S model Audi), it is the dash board with the 2 binnacles on the new BM and the 'look' of it that puts me off. I have only driven a BM 318 iS coupe, and that was 4 up from Welwyn to Manchester. Very capable, but needed either less people in it or more power! Image - bollox to that, I've owned an Alfa and Lancia Thema, I buy what I like and usually ignore other people's ideas/predjuices on a car. My mates used to buy fast 2 dr cars (which were nice) and I'd always buy a big cruising saloon/hatch, as that is what I prefer. (Ren 25, Senators, Omegas, Audi V8, Audi A8 etc). My mates are very surprised at the speeds these tanks can go! Image of drivers - you can (and do) get tw4ts in any car - not just BMs. RWD in the wet - Not really a problem. If you know what you are doing then that is not an issue until you are really pushing which most people will never get too. RWD in the snow - depends upon the car! I loved my Omegas in the snow! I love my Quattros in the snow! I have witness Mercs and BMs just sitting spinning their wheels. Yep maybe twice a year. RS4 Stealthy??? Na. Any scholboy worth his salt will spot an RS4 a mile off. I just prefer the look of the RS4. My personal choice, but I won't slag off those who prefer the BM. Hell, I liked the old gen AMG Mercs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanG Posted April 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 Got to say that even though the A4 design is begining to look a little tired, several of us at work think the new M3 looks like a crossed eyed Lexus.... Having driven to work for three years in RWD 3 series, and 5 series, I used to dred the wet. Sure, you dont spin, but getting on and off the turnpike was a nightmare as the raod nearly doubled back on itself and EVERY BMW used to slide about (and I was not doing great speed). Best thing that happend was when I got the 530xiT (AWD) with M5 body kit. The BEST BMW I ever had... not available in teh UK i i don't think.. Point is, if BMW can make a superb AWD system, which they truely can, then why not chuck it in an Msport version and really go for your competitors market share..... Until then, for everyday driving it would be the RS4 (Avant) for me.... particularly as in NJ we get to experience some real winters with snow and ice from Nov to April. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizze Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 Audi have only overtaken BMW this year for the first time in around 7 years for AWD sales, in Europe you can get a 335xi/d M-sport, even get the 335xi/d touring M-Sport. BMW UK doesn't want to dilute the 'sporty' perception UK customers have of their brand by bringing them over here! Dipshits!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanG Posted April 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 They handle really well though.... In the East Coast North American Market, pretty much anywhere north of Washington DC, BMW dealers sell mostly X drive vehicles. X5, X3 and 3 and 5 Series Xi models. The highest volume SAV dealer in the world is in New Jersey near our house, (just in case that one comes up in a pub quiz etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser647 Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 [ QUOTE ] Audi have only overtaken BMW this year for the first time in around 7 years for AWD sales, in Europe you can get a 335xi/d M-sport, even get the 335xi/d touring M-Sport. BMW UK doesn't want to dilute the 'sporty' perception UK customers have of their brand by bringing them over here! Dipshits!! [/ QUOTE ] Audi were just as guilty. Only offering the Audi A6 (to '96) S6 model with the 2.2 turbo engine. The Europeans got the 4.2 V8 option...... And with the A8 in Europe got the 2.5 V6 TDi and 3.3 V6 TDi options............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizze Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 [ QUOTE ] And with the A8 in Europe got the 2.5 V6 TDi and 3.3 V6 TDi options............ [/ QUOTE ] I bet they look back at that now and cringe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitas3 Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 [ QUOTE ] Snowboarding Monday evening. Do they do that every week Simon?? [/ QUOTE ] nope - last one for a while. keep a lookout on http://www.motorsportvision.co.uk/snette...p;Submit=Search Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 some interesting points and some bizarre ones, my 2p as follows: the following definitely in the bizarre camp: [ QUOTE ] An M3 will go just as fast in the wet as it will in the dry [/ QUOTE ] I have to ask whether gIzzE has actually driven both of these cars in anger over a reasonable period of time? Are you seriously saying an M3 will go round a track in the ****ing rain as quick as the dry? Crazy talk, the M3 I drove could not get off the line at all well in rain, DSC cut in all the time and if you turned it off the wheels span most of the power away. That is not to say it was a bad handling car in the wet at all, the limts were just reached far earlier and I was certainly more respectful of the power. I do agree that some on here overplay the advantages of quattro. But for fun here is a prediction, if someone like TG did a back to back on the RS4 and the new M3, the new M3 would be the better track plaything and would be quicker in the dry but the RS4 would be quicker in the wet. You criticise the usual RWD cliches and rightly so, then come up with one yourself: [ QUOTE ] by the time the back end comes out on a BMW the RS4 would have already understeered into a wall, and I am being completely serious about that [/ QUOTE ] have you driven an RS4? I am still getting used to mine but it most certainly oversteers and very playfully and pleasantly. I still find the RS4 quite stealthy to 95% of the public, to my shame I keep rubbernecking S lines to look at a fellow RS driver. Reactions to the car have been great though, a few people asking me to gun it but most looking at the car and trying to figure out why it sounds like a NASCAR The comment above about the M3 looking more different from the base models is true for now but wait until the Sport versions of the coupe come out, think the differences will be less obvious then. Also agree with the comments re. current BMW interiors - I hate the angled plank look of the dashes and feel the previous interiors were much more attractive. Read the Autocar comparison and was surprised to read the M3 was a little wider, longer and taller than the RS4. Not that I take much notice of such things but the image of BMWs is certainly more negative than Audi and find it odd that Wopps feels BMW has no negative connotations - maybe its more of an 80s thing and he is too young but surely the whole no indicator thing has not passed him by. All utter b*llocks of course but certainly got as many coffee bean gestures in the M3 as the Boxster, but none in any Audi I have had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizze Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 I am not saying you will get the same times round a track in the wet as you would on a warm dry day, of course not, but I am sure that there is too much made of the wet weather handling, I was very nervous of the CSL in wet weather to start off with, but after a month or so you realised it didn't make that much difference, I still found it very hard to make it let go without making it. Yeah I have driven the RS4, on a few occasions now, but I think maybe I didn't get my point over properly, I was trying to say that by the time you have got to speeds where the back end would be out on teh M3 the RS4 would be struggling too, and anyone that does those sort of speeds on public roads is a bit of a moron, there is a time and a place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark88 Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 On the subject of 3 series coupe's. I rather like this: http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/157107.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brisel Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 I can't see that a BMW will ever get a majority vote on TSN but I do think that it is a more "invigorating" drive than a RS4. Sure, I'd rather have an RS4 because it would suit me in terms of having the safer Quattro grip, sounds better, has a different image, is a bit more exclusive & IMHO it looks a little better even if the design is older. For pure adrenalin and track/road fun? M3. No contest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 There is an interesting Clarkson quote in his Top Gear column this month. "I desperately want to make a film comparing the Audi RS4 Avant, BMW M5 Touring and the Mercedes E63 Estate. I want to show those of a 4x4 disposition that there's a life in a stratum below where they normally live. A more fun-filled, oversteery sort of life, where you get home more quickly, and with a bigger smile on your face, and (because hippies and Communists only care about four-wheel drives) with less egg on your windscreen as well." Having read some of the recent posts about how the BMW image is so poor compared to Audi, he does seem to have a point. If you own an Audi and think you don't have the same image problem that BMW do (I acknowledge it exists), then I suggest you get out of bed this morning and make a point of observing the behaviour of the drivers of Audis. They are, without question, becoming just as chavvy, just as annoying, just as stupid, and just as cock-like as any BMW driver I have ever come across. The days when Audi was the dark horse brand that the astute and anonymity seeking professional chose are gone. Its image is now just as bad as BMW's because of one thing. Neither can chose their buyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 gIzzE - the two times I played with the back end were between 30-40mph on a clear and wide roundabout, hardly ludicrous speeds (and it was dry!). Probably the only place I would try to induce oversteer, other than track, as on the open road it is too dangerous with traffic, kerbs etc Would be good to see a side by side comparison of the saloon M3 v RS4 which is fairer as coupes always look better than 4 doors. MrMe - you completely miss the point on the image IMHO (not surprising coming from a BMW bias) - the "BMW drivers drive like arrogant tw8ts" image has little basis in fact. Tw8ts drive all sorts of cars including Audis however certain brands have a poor image and it seems to stick. You have to have strong BMW-tinted spectacles on to think Audi have an image at all - IMHO it is "solid, good quality, a little safe, bought to avoid the BMW image". Mark88 - drove one very similar £45k for a 335i v £45k for year old RS4 is no contest. Besides that one has hideous wood Just to show I am not anti-BMW, if I was still childless I would probably get the M3 coupe (although I would consider an RS5 but that might be a while coming out), as it is I need rear doors and reckon I would prefer the RS4 saloon to an M3 saloon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNiceMrMe Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 [ QUOTE ] MrMe - you completely miss the point on the image IMHO (not surprising coming from a BMW bias) - the "BMW drivers drive like arrogant tw8ts" image has little basis in fact. Tw8ts drive all sorts of cars including Audis however certain brands have a poor image and it seems to stick. You have to have strong BMW-tinted spectacles on to think Audi have an image at all - IMHO it is "solid, good quality, a little safe, bought to avoid the BMW image". [/ QUOTE ] Ermm, but I have an Audi A4 too. Okay, so I hate it, but thats not the point. I do understand your point and didn't miss it, I just happen to disagree. Audi, in my opinion, do have an image, and right now its just about on par with BMW in every respect. I just don't buy the anonymous argument anymore. Its simply not a factor because of the huge sales success Audi's have been of late. Its gone. They're another prestige marque bought by many for the prestige status - aka the same as many BMW's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 that is why I said IMHO. and if you think Audi's image is on a par with BMW's with the general public then yes, I think we agree to disagree cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 In normal use an RS4 will always be quicker than an M3.... ...because people quite happily let Audi's pull out of junctions nad think "feck 'em" if they're in a BMW. I agree with MrMe that the Audi marque is getting a reputation but I think it's a long way from BMWs one at the moment. p.s. I always let M3's out as there's a faint chance they might want to play....but they never do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanG Posted April 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 This thread could also be extended to the RS6 Avant v M5 Touring too.... I am very interested to see the new RS6 Avant having been told by the dealer its a V10 twin turbo... oh Yes, yes, yes. Come on!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
330dcoupe Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 I thought Audi now did away with turbo charging their big cars? A V10 twin Turbo would be insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
330dcoupe Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 [ QUOTE ] In normal use an RS4 will always be quicker than an M3.... ...because people quite happily let Audi's pull out of junctions nad think "feck 'em" if they're in a BMW. I agree with MrMe that the Audi marque is getting a reputation but I think it's a long way from BMWs one at the moment. p.s. I always let M3's out as there's a faint chance they might want to play....but they never do [/ QUOTE ] I reckon all cars have a reputation now - because there seems to be a bad driver in every 2nd or 3rd car nowadays!!! especially the lazy, half arsed 'can't be bothered to earn a living' scum off the social that get a hold of a "disability" car. Disabled, my arse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarMad Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 I have to agree with MrMe on the image. I drive an Audi its often mentioned how mad Audi drivers are becoming. I think the 318i of the premium rep in the past has changed to the 1.9/2.0TDI A4 today. They hold onto your bumper like a limpet and they slowly drift past to get the next victim all the time. BMW probably still have a slight image issue but Audi is rapidly catching up IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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