Will - where are you?

[Hopsta]

Have agreed with both sets of views here that much i'm hurting from sitting on the fence. What ever tuner pops a graph up for us to trawl over and quote pub figures is almost getting free advertising! TSN has approx 13k members who are all car enthusiasts, captive audience anyone?

[Scotty]

Will :

[ QUOTE ]

I'll tell you what, get another tuning company, (not their customers but them) to post their graph up on the forums, get them to proove their work, then I'll do it.

As you say Scotty, everyone has their own preferences, so why post 1 result up here?

The problem with forums is you get alot of people who know it all, and like getting their name across the threads

[/ QUOTE ]

There are various tuners that post graphs. AMD, MTM, APR, ABT, etc. I'm not sure why you specifically say not customers graphs?

Danksy:

[ QUOTE ]

I don't think the requests are unresonable, so come on proove scotty wrong and show us how your software delivers it's power, and torque

[/ QUOTE ]

There's nothing to prove me wrong about. I'm just again asking for the information that we was told we'd get ages ago. I'd genunily welcome it.

Will :

[ QUOTE ]

Its not a big issue, but certain people are making it one.

When I have the dyno charts, I'll post them. I tune anything with a ECU on the road, not all VAG cars, so to everyone here......once again Ill post them when I have them, until then Scotty, please be patient

All the best

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'm certain people. It's not a big issue hence I don't understand the reluctance when you have a lot of people looking at this. Surely this is a great free advertising opportunity.

BenjaminTDI:

[ QUOTE ]

I do agree with everyone else here that you should produce dyno graphs Will.

However would everyone give him a break!? He said he's going to post some graphs when he gets hold of them! Give him a chance, the poor sod!

[/ QUOTE ]

We had one promise of results and then another. I then started this thread. I'm not sure what giving someone a break entails when I'm merely asking what happened to the previous two promises. In your rules, how many weeks should I wait before asking for such information?

Bub

[ QUOTE ]

My veiw is Scotty is being deliberately provocative and argumentative for what seems to be no reason at all. He’s already got his S4 as far as AMD can take it without internal mod’s, so as far as I can see, he isn’t a ‘potential’ customer at all.

I always thought the TyreSmoke regulars were above that and, 'COUGH' AS.net was where people picked on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the most disappointing comment on this thread for me.

I thought you knew me (from my posts) better than that. I don't rubbish people or post just to get on threads. What sense is there in posting for "no reason at all"? I'm gutted that you have this opinion of me as you're about as wide of the mark as it's possible to get.

Why am I not a potential customer? Because my current car is AMD'ed? I wonder if AMD thought I wasn't a potential customer when I had my TT APR'ed. Am I never changing my car? Am I not genuinely interested in a guy who potentially can do as good a job as other tuners at a fraction of the price?

Bub - on this one you really have missed where I'm coming from and what I'm about as a person. I'm quite shocked and disappointed anyone would have this view of me due to a simple line of questioning.

[Avus_Bub]

[ QUOTE ]

Bub - on this one you really have missed where I'm coming from and what I'm about as a person. I'm quite shocked and disappointed anyone would have this view of me due to a simple line of questioning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Scotty I don't deny that your posts and comments are normally very well written and informative.I'm not the argumentative type at all and I don't come on here for a punch up!! I'm here, like most to have a laugh,hang out and maybe even learn something new (as I do most days).

It just seemed to me that you’ve got your teeth into Will and won’t let go! As I said the guy obviously isn’t going to post up any graphs any more than Revo are going to (re P_G's S4 and the 190ps 1.8t).

I can’t see that this thread has anything left to give TSN

All the best Scotty and I'm not out for a ruck!!!

BUB

[Scotty]

[ QUOTE ]

I can’t see that this thread has anything left to give TSN

All the best Scotty and I'm not out for a ruck!!!

BUB

[/ QUOTE ]

You may be right but Will has asked for patience and then he'll post so I'll go along with that.

[wcs_80]

Just to put people in the picture...

I am hoping to get an Audi TT 225bhp. This will be tuned when I get it, and then put on the rolling road.

I hope this will be within the next month. The results will be posted

[ian_m]

I take it you mean that you are going to tune it? your post reads that it will already be tuned when you get it

[Mollox]

Been watching this thread with interest. I don’t know Will from Adam and I know Scotty very well, but that’s neither here nor there. Perhaps I can add some thoughts that will help to explain some of the sentinent expressed in this post.

As Tyresmoke we’re very much in favour of enging tuning and indeed the tuning industry. I’m struggling to think of more than a couple of mods who don’t own or have owned a remapped car and between us we have a large collective experience of running remapped cars as well as relationships with all the major UK tuners. It goes without saying that Tyresmoke as a community is one of the largest collective customer bases and knowledge pools with regard to engine tuning/remapping in the UK.

Whilst we’re very much in favour of this industry, we still feel that more can be done by all in the industry to further develop accountability and the customer experience. Whatever might be said, Rolling road graphs are an integral part of this process. As a minimum. We’d like to see tuners having their outputs independently certified and specific moves made to address the grey area of warranties. The industry has grown remarkably over the last few years and we hope this development continues but equally investment needs to be directed towards enhancing the customer experience and providing the safeguards that one would expect with a purchase of several hundred pounds that applies to vehicles worth several thousands. The secrecy that Will appears to be employing goes against what we want from tuners.

Through years of TSN posts its farily clear to see what people considering remaps worry about. I myself can draw on my own experience as typical of this also. Having just splashed out on a new S3 (my dream car, the most I’d ever spent on a car etc) and knowing next to nothing about remapping, I was naturally very hesitant about having a remap. What I wanted were answers, lots of them and I was far from alone. The sort of questions that appear time and time again on Tyresmoke are:

- Will it cause damage to my engine?

- Will associated components fail sooner as a result etc

- Will it invalidate my manufacturer warranty?

- Do you provide your own warranty?

- What are other people’s experiences of your product?

- Can I see dyno plots for the remaps?

- What will it feel like on the road?

- Will there be increased lag?

- Will the driving experience be affected?

- Will there be any physical evidence of tampering?

- Can I try before I buy?

Its clear to see from the sheer volume of posts that most people share some if not all of these doubts. In order for them to make a purchase they need to have these doubts addressed. I would say that the vast majority of our users fall into the group of people that feel this way and are more than happy to pay in excess of £500 for a product that is at least in some way demonstrable and to a company that took the time to address my concerns. I seriously wonder how many people, bearing the above in mind, will be happy paying half that money and effectively ‘chancing it’. Also, in all honesty, I’d want to get the feeling that development work had been carried out on the remap. You mention tuning cars on the road and I understand that, but to be honest, I’d want to know that you’d broken another car like mine finding the limits of where you could push it and therefore making sure that no customer car ever did that.

As I said Will, I don’t know you, I haven’t seen a website or anything but on the showing so far I wouldn’t want you to remap my car. I’d be looking for the most open tuner, the one with the most expansive and plausible answers. Secondly, I don’t even know if you are a limited company – and this is important because people will consider “what if it goes wrong?” and “what recourse will I then have”? I don’t know anything about the technology you employ – you may well be acting as an agent for another tuner (there seem to be loads of people with laptops and websites these days) or you may simply know about ECUs and be very knowledgeable yet none of this is coming through. I don’t need to outline the potential risks associated with poor tuning work – the bills can easily run into thousands so I think its perfectly understandable when people ask for clarification/justification of a tuner’s work. Any tom/dick/harry with a laptop can offer “remaps” these days but there still remain very few “bricks and mortar” ‘tuning companies’ in the UK, and even fewer that actually write their own code.

I could remap any number of VAG cars today but I would never consider myself a tuner. As I said, we’re all for the development of the tuning industry but we’re even more in favour of empowering and defending our members. On the showing so far, I wouldn’t be able to recommend you to anyone considering a remap of their car. Like I said, you might be the best thing that’s ever happened to the tuning world but on the showing so far I can’t help but seat myself firmly in the skeptical camp.

Quick note: Mook, you can’t download trial software from the REVO site! You still need to go to a REVO dealer to have it ‘installed’

[Dave]

Excellent post Mollox,

I agree completly.. I paid around £3000 to have my RS6 chipped.. in the end i went to Abt and that was after contacting pretty much all the tuning house. The reason i chose them was because they were able to answer all my questions and concerns.I knew they were as enthastic about the car as i was, and i knew they would take care of me if i had any problems. They even invited me up to see their facilities (although i didn't make it)!

When you have a car which is your pride and joy, you want people to treat it in the same way you do.As Mollox states, too much of the tuning business is unregulated and there seems to be an unwritten rule that if it all goes tits up.. then you are on your own.. I'm not saying everyone is like that, but i hear of it time and time again.

As part of the deal you also want to know what you are getting for your money. My RS6 went from 450bhp to 505bhp. I knew that if it approached 600bhp then i could be looking at new gearboxes. I also wanted to know how the power would come in.. was a simple boost re-map?... infact, barry (who had his RS6 done at the same time) and me aslo had our gearbox software changed aswell. Service like that makes you want to go back!

[Scotty]

Great post Molly. Exactly my thoughts .... although expressed in a much clearer manner and with far more eloquence.

[wcs_80]

Very nice post

[shark_90]

Well I've not really been around much recently, I had my laptop stolen and I'm working away from home so it's very difficult for me to get online at the moment.

I've read parts of this thread, and quite frankly I think most of it is bollocks. As far as I'm concerned, I'm happy with the work Will did on my car. If I wanted it tuned and then (optimistically) rolling roaded and for someone to feed me coffee, I'd have paid ~£500+VAT and gone to AMD or a Revo dealer or whatever.

I didn't. I paid £190, my car was dismantled in a hospital car park, and hey presto, my car's a fair bit quicker than it was. That's all I'm bothered about, and I'm happy.

I must say Scotty, you do seem to have a rather large bee in your bonnet over this, and I very much agree with what Bub has said.

We all do what we do, go where we want, and pay who we want to pay. There's no reason whatsoever for you to take Will apart piece by piece on a public forum, and there is certainly no call for the way that you've done it. I think it's derogatory and patronising and certainly not in the spirit of the forum.

If you want your car remapped, go where you want to go to get it remapped. Weigh up the pros and the cons of each company/person/gardener and make a decision. I did. And I'm happy.

[dan_emaps]

As to the odd comment that this is a more or less a pointless post i have to say i've found it quite interesting :-)

Mollox - just to confirm, are we ok to post dyno plots on here? As i realise it is a form of advertising and perhaps unfair on the paying advertisers on the site, as neither myself (although i have asked lol) or i believe Will contribute. If we're ok to do this though i've a Seat Leon Cupra R going on a independant rolling road early next month and would be more than happy to post the results if it would be of interest to anyone.

Dave i'd say that if your happy with the car 3k is worth it, the RS6's are not easy to do and the gearbox software has to be changed or it won't work properly, not straight forward!

Cheers

[Durrsaku]

I agree totally with you Shark. From my experience with Will he has been very happy to provide answers to all the above questions raised by Mollox in one to one basis. I have PM him and his replies have been reasuring and i am sure he would be very happy to address any concerns if anyone was seriously thinking of having their car done. In the end of the day personally speaking you have to pick up the phone and talk direct to the company or "gardener" you are thinking to have your car remapped by rather than have an audience with him and come up with some sort of a group decision. The way this thread has been going it seems as some think that Will owes us an explanation and we have been in a group indirectly bullying him to defend the quality of his product. Why? I don't recall that we have done this with any other so called reputtable tunner. Yes we have shared our own experiences but not like this. As far as i can remember Will was invited to post in here to address some questions after Shark had his car done and i thank him for that but at no point have i seen him use this site as an advertising tool so i don't see that he owes it to anyone although he has been willing to provide us with what we have asked for in due time.

[shark_90]

Well said Genti.

[Daz]

I suggest some of you newer guys go back a few years and look at some of the discussions in the past. They are no different to this. When Revo and APR started tuning similar threads occured.

[Dave]

I remember the days when we used to 'chip' cars in the pub car park with nothing more than a laptop. No-one seemed to complain then!!

I do agree with above.. everyone does their own thing.

And yes, I was very happy with the end results on the RS6.. don't have it anymore, but it was excellent. I never did have it rolling roaded though

[RedRobin]

Regardless of how capable Will is, and I'm not qualified to make such a judgement, I think that Mollox's list of concerns which most people have about tuning are absolutely spot on! Any and every tuner simply has to address such concerns and behave in an honest and professional manner. The tuning industry needs regulating in my opinion and then the car manufacturers and dealers might be more supportive as well.

[Daz]

[ QUOTE ]

I remember the days when we used to 'chip' cars in the pub car park with nothing more than a laptop. No-one seemed to complain then!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite Dave, the actual chipping was actually done at the tuners offices, the pub car park "chipping" was just code upgrades. This was prior to the days of Serial port programming.

[Dave]

I agree Robin,

If there was more regulation and more agreement about what you can expect then i think the market would be a lot busier than it is. The market for car tuning could be massive, but there is a reluctance there beacuse it all seems a bit dark and corner garage stuff. AMD have done their best to transform and to some success.. but even so, regulation through thr industry would be better.

[Dave]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

I remember the days when we used to 'chip' cars in the pub car park with nothing more than a laptop. No-one seemed to complain then!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite Dave, the actual chipping was actually done at the tuners offices, the pub car park "chipping" was just code upgrades. This was prior to the days of Serial port programming.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes mate!!

That's really what i meant.. people think of chipping now as just a code upload, but you are right, it actually involves a lot more.. down loading the code from the original chip, deciphering it and then re-engineering it to imrpove performance.

[Scotty]

[ QUOTE ]

I must say Scotty, you do seem to have a rather large bee in your bonnet over this, and I very much agree with what Bub has said.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the risk I'm repeating myself....

I've met people who have been tuned and been happy and those who have been tuned and not been happy. Some are happy until the turbo goes etc etc.

All I've been doing since Will came on the site is to try to get some more information out of him about his service/product. If his product looks good to me then I'd point people on other forums in his direction. Afterall his price is very appealing. At the same time I wouldn't recommend friends who are looking into this to someone I didn't have enough information about to come to a conclusion. Hence why I keep asking for info.

I'm actually excited that there maybe someone who's good at what he does and he charges far less that some of the big names. This is very good but at the moment for me it's just a dangling carrot without anything tangible.

As per the graphs I posted earlier, one of those feels much faster than the other (but it isn't). I actually prefer the one that's smoother. How would I know how Will's acts if I can't get any info or graph?

At the moment I seem to be viewed by some of you as someone trying to disrupt Will or rubbish him. If you look at my posts they are all saying I can't make a judgement without more info which I've pleaded for on occassions before this thread.

People have also said why pick on Will and not AMD, APR etc etc. Well I've been through the learning process with them a long time ago. Will's new on the block hence there are questions for him.

I'd seriously love to see the graphs and find that they are superb. It'd be great for everyone. I genuinely would be very happy to see this. Will's said he'll post them so I'm happy to wait and see them.

Shark - You said "Weigh up the pros and the cons of each company/person/gardener and make a decision." What do you think I'm trying to do???? Do you really expect me to weigh up Will because of what your Butt dyno tells you? That's not really fair on Will is it.

I totally reject the comments that I've taken Will apart piece by piece on a public forum. How? What? Where? When?

I personally can't think of a better place to discuss with a tuner their product than in the Tuning section of a car forum.

p.s. One other point, if you've no idea how much your power has increase by, how can you declare it to your insurer? Many now ask how much it's gone up?

[ian_m]

Ben, Have you had any problems??? Can you say that you are 100% satisfied??

[oldseadog]

[ QUOTE ]

Hi Scotty

Sorry its hard to beleive you have a genuine interest in my tuning when you refer to me ''gods gift to tuning''......little bit rude and unfair I would say.

As promised a dyno will be posted, but my customers rarely request one,(not even the 2 chaps off here Sharky and Gerry, who are obviously into their cars, and over the moon with my work, I never asked them to start a thread especially to say how pleased they are) so please be patient, and I'll post a whole new thread with results on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

After responses to the thread i started thanking Will, i really can't be bothered any more. It's certainly a buyers market so people can shop where they want and spend the money they want. I don't feel the need to prove that my thanks have to be backed up with a Dyno, the 5000 miles i have covered since early November are enough for me! No doubt if i ever meet any of you guys in the future i'll be happy to show you the cars capabities. Cheers again Will.

[shark_90]

I'm not going to go into a massive post on this one, I really can't be bothered with an argument and I have no quarrel with you Scotty.

Ian: Yes, I am 100% satisfied. I've had a problem with my cat breaking on the inlet side, and I've had water ingress into the fusebox since the remap, but I wouldn't blame the remap for either of these directly.

[Avus_Bub]

How many miles your car done, Shark? (in total)

BUB